2013 State of The Union - Let's Go

[GrandWino]

@John_Mace

Which Romney was that?

Good point, he’s had more versions released than Adobe Reader.

[Debaser]

@RTFirefly

And you can’t piss on the electric fence without taking a piss, either. So maybe you should never take a piss. And you can’t trip and fall in front of a subway train if you never go near the subway, so never go near the subway. And you’ll never fall off a third-floor balcony and break your neck if you never go out on a third-floor balcony. Etcetera.

These analogies would work only if there was a large, well funded group of people dedicated to electrocuting me/throwing me in front of a train/tossing me off a balcony.

[Debaser]

@RTFirefly

So if you don’t want to get hit by a car, you should never cross the street. Hell, stay off the sidewalk, because occasionally a car will find its way there, too.

This would indeed be reasonable if there were a person in a car on that street who had proven time and time again that he was intent on running me over. He had two bumper stickers: “Coexist” and “Obama - Biden”.

[Debaser]

@RTFirefly

They don’t have to. As BG just pointed out, the Federal minimum wage is a national floor, and states are free to enact higher minimum wages.

Since about a dozen people have piled on to this I guess I have to respond to it: Of course a min wage allows differences between states on the high end. But they should be free to set it at whatever level they want on both ends.

That’s so obvious as to not seem to need to be stated, but there you go.

[GrandWino]

@Debaser

These analogies would work only if there was a large, well funded group of people dedicated to electrocuting me/throwing me in front of a train/tossing me off a balcony.

You’re talking about the NRA, right?

[Lobohan]

@Debaser

Since about a dozen people have piled on to this I guess I have to respond to it: Of course a min wage allows differences between states on the high end. But they should be free to set it at whatever level they want on both ends.

That’s so obvious as to not seem to need to be stated, but there you go.

It isn’t obvious. It’s just your ideology controlling your perceptions.

[Randvek]

@Debaser

Since about a dozen people have piled on to this I guess I have to respond to it: Of course a min wage allows differences between states on the high end. But they should be free to set it at whatever level they want on both ends.

That’s so obvious as to not seem to need to be stated, but there you go.

Yeah! Why pay Chinese a dollar a day to work in a sweatshop when we can pay Americans a dollar a day to work in a sweatshop?

[BrainGlutton]

@Debaser

It doesn’t matter.

Confiscation can’t be done without registration.

Of course it can: Just ban guns and make it a crime to possess one, like it’s a crime to possess cocaine. Which will not happen in this country, and neither will confiscation following on registration. We could, if it passes the SCOTUS’ scrutiny, which it might, have a regime where possession of an unregistered firearm would be a crime; and that would not be a bad thing at all, at all.

[YogSothoth]

@Debaser

Forcing full background checks on all private sales would also criminalize a lot of law abiding people.

I’m sorry, but I could not stop laughing about this line.

Essentially, you are saying that by having this law, they will catch a lot of criminals that will otherwise go free. May I suggest to you that the INTENTION of the law IS to criminalize a lot of those people?

If you sell your gun to your nephew, you need to do a background check on him, no exceptions.

@Debaser

That depends. Would Romney have openly baited and challenged the SCOTUS right in their face during his State of the Union with the court’s decorum preventing any response?

Who cares? The justices are there for life. What do they give a damn about a public challenge? Just sit your ass down and look bored like everyone else

[tomndebb]

TWEEEET!

We already have a (large) number of gun control threads. Let’s keep that topic in those threads and leave this one open for the other points of discussion regarding the State of the Union.

[ /Moderating ]

[panaccione]

@Debaser

But they should be free to set it at whatever level they want on both ends.

That’s so obvious as to not seem to need to be stated, but there you go.

In what universe does this make any sense?

[sleestak]

@BrainGlutton

CA has a higher cost of living, I’m sure. That $9/hour Obama was talking about should be only a national floor.

So, the wage floor ought to be the same regardless of the actual economy of the individual states?

In 2008, the average wage in South Dakaota was 32,822 and New York was 60,288. Presently, the median home price in SD is 155,000, in New York it is 325,000. Do you see why it might be that a minimum wage increase to bring South Dakota up to New York might be problematic?

I expect not, however, it is something you ought to think about.

Slee

[RTFirefly]

@Debaser

These analogies would work only if there was a large, well funded group of people dedicated to electrocuting me/throwing me in front of a train/tossing me off a balcony.

This would only work if there was a large, well-funded group of people dedicated to confiscating everyone’s guns.

[RTFirefly]

@Debaser

Since about a dozen people have piled on to this I guess I have to respond to it: Of course a min wage allows differences between states on the high end. But they should be free to set it at whatever level they want on both ends.

That’s so obvious as to not seem to need to be stated, but there you go.

I guess ‘obvious’ is in the eye of the beholder.

What you’re saying is that there should be no national minimum wage, that each state should be free to set, or not set, one as they please.

That’s what you call a recipe for a Third World country.

[RTFirefly]

@sleestak

So, the wage floor ought to be the same regardless of the actual economy of the individual states?

That’s the way it’s been since the establishment of a Federal minimum wage, so it’s not like it hasn’t been tested in practice. Seems to have worked so far.

[RTFirefly]

@tomndebb

TWEEEET!

We already have a (large) number of gun control threads. Let’s keep that topic in those threads and leave this one open for the other points of discussion regarding the State of the Union.

[ /Moderating ]

Didn’t see this until after the edit window had closed on post #133. My apologies.

[BrainGlutton]

@sleestak

So, the wage floor ought to be the same regardless of the actual economy of the individual states?

$9/hr for a 40-hour week for 52 weeks comes out to $18,720/yr. Do you really believe there’s any state in the Union where you could support yourself on less?

[Shayna]

@BrainGlutton

Of course it can: Just ban guns and make it a crime to possess one, like it’s a crime to possess cocaine. Which will not happen in this country, and neither will confiscation following on registration. We could, if it passes the SCOTUS’ scrutiny, which it might, have a regime where possession of an unregistered firearm would be a crime; and that would not be a bad thing at all, at all.

This. Registration is completely unnecessary to confiscation … if confiscation were the goal (which it’s not).

Also, we have millions of registered cars but the big, bad ol’ gubmint isn’t running around confiscating cars.

I think we ought to treat guns exactly like we treat cars. Have them registered and insured for liability, have the owners tested and licensed, and have them inspected for safety every year.

These are common sense rules that hold gun owners responsible for their firearms and would go a long way towards protecting society as a whole without barring non-felons from owning and using guns for their intended purpose.

You should see the rigorous field tests hunters are required to pass to get a gun license in Denmark. If the examiner sees a hint of you even handling your gun in an unsafe way, you fail, whether you could hit every target dead on or not.

@sleestak

So, the wage floor ought to be the same regardless of the actual economy of the individual states?

In 2008, the average wage in South Dakaota was 32,822 and New York was 60,288. Presently, the median home price in SD is 155,000, in New York it is 325,000. Do you see why it might be that a minimum wage increase to bring South Dakota up to New York might be problematic?

No. North Dakota should increase their minimum wage to exceed the federal POVERTY rate. And in reality, $9/hour doesn’t even meet that.

What New York or California do beyond that is up to them.

US Minimum Wage Is Pretty Low Compared To Some Countries

Obama’s ‘Job-Killing’ Minimum Wage Hike Is Actually Pretty Low

[BrainGlutton]

RationalWiki sez:

The effects of the minimum wage, a legally-mandated lower limit on (usually hourly) pay rates, are the subject of some controversy. Introductory microeconomics would suggest that the setting of a price floor would prevent an equilibrium between price and quantity from being reached, thereby creating a surplus of the resource or product in question.

However, if the labor market is, as sometimes theorized,[1] a monopsonistic oligopoly, the market for labor fails, as firms under-pay workers (due to the transaction costs in switching jobs). As such, depending on the level, a minimum wage might actually decrease unemployment.

Empirical evidence is mixed. David Card and Alan Krueger found that a wage increase in New Jersey increased employment in New Jersey fast food restaurants along the border of Pennsylvania (where the introductory treatment would have expected employment losses).[2] On the other hand, David Neumark and William Wascher found “[statistically] insignificant—although almost always negative” employment effects from the same hike.[3]

United States

The current federal minimum wage in the U.S. is $7.25 per hour,[4] though it is higher in some states. Minimum wages in the U.S. have never been sufficient to raise a family out of poverty, if only one member of the family works. The minimum wage has varied from a maximum of 90% of the poverty level in 1968 and has averaged two thirds of the poverty level since 1959, when the poverty level was established.[5]

Footnotes

1.↑ Oligopsony appears to occur mostly in certain agricultural markets such as tomatoes, tobacco, and cocoa. Economists note that oligopsony is “scarcely mentioned” by industrial organization organization economists because “they don’t think it’s very important” and “don’t believe it presents any unique modeling issues relative to seller market power” (Rogers, Richard T. and Sexton, Richard J., Assessing the Importance of Oligopsony Power in Agricultural Markets, Am. J. Agr. Econ. (1994) 76 (5): 1143-1150. doi: 10.2307/1243407); and that “One of the most difficult problems facing economists is to determine from market data whether or not market power is being exercised” (Richard E. Just and Wen S. Chern, Tomatoes, Technology, and Oligopsony, The Bell Journal of Economics, Vol. 11, No. 2 (Autumn, 1980), pp. 584-602). Since oligopsony is all about a few buyers exercising market power, if it is difficult to tell whether market power is being exercised, then it is difficult to determine oligopsony’s existence and influence, and thus the idea that it is “widely held” that the labor market is an oligopsony is dubious.
2.↑ David Card and Alan B. Krueger, “Minimum Wages and Employment: A Case Study of the Fast-Food Industry in New Jersey and Pennsylvania,” American Economic Review, Volume 84, no. 4 (September 1994), pp. 774-775.
3.↑ Neumark & Wascher, American Economic Review, Volume 90 No. 5.
4.↑ Minimum Wage | U.S. Department of Labor
5.↑ Oregon State University

[BrainGlutton]

BTW, why does this thread belong in the Elections forum?