Just make the same pledge I did foolsguinea. No Nadering. If the race is close, we’ll vote for Clinton to stop Trump.
Heh.
That hasn’t been clear until now. But *now *we see that either he really doesn’t think there’s a difference between them :rolleyes: , or that his hatred of her runs so deep that he’s even willing to see Trump elected just to get her back for beating Bernie.
Thank goodness Senator Sanders, the nut that he is, lost. Now we don’t have to worry about the USA adopting more failed economic policies like our friends in Venezuela. http://bigstory.ap.org/article/5ee6b03daee141c3b89d419ecadcc7fa/venezuelans-pick-through-trash-food-eat-or-sell
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Great. Buh-bye now.
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Wanna bet?
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Your lack of comprehension of the political landscape is showing.
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This is even more absurd than usual for you. Are you serious with this? :dubious:
It was to me.
Gary Johnson is also going after Sanders voters aggressively. I guess Stein and Johnson both see a lot of undecided voters there:
I think the fact that the green party still exists is evidence that it’s either fundamentally clueless of politics (inexcusable for a political party) or more interested in throwing progressives under the fucking bus than anything else. They should have packed it in in 2000; at this point, there’s really no other way of putting it: they’re either evil or stupid.
So principles don’t matter? The only non stupid or good vote is for the Democrats? It’s this exact point of view that makes it hard for people to want to work with those in other parties.
I mean, the problem is the Green Party is to the left of the Democratic Party for the most part, so any vote for them immediately engages the spoiler effect by taken votes from the Dem’s base. When it comes down to it, there are only two viable candidates. The only two situations in which the Green Party could “win” are if the Dem party completely implodes and doesn’t run a candidate, or the vote is split so evenly* they get a plurality and not a majority, in which case the House elects the president and they probably lose anyway.
I mean, yeah, there’s a way, way, way outside chance that SOMEHOW the Green Party gets the majority of the electoral college, but it’s such an outside chance it’s almost not even worth considering.
It’s not “dumb” so much as it shows an ignorance of the problems with our voting system. I’d probably vote for Green more often if it wasn’t for these effects, but unfortunately our political system makes that a bad choice for me because it’s stupidly better to vote against who you hate than for who you like.
- I’m including some outside chance here that a mainstream Republican or far right party spoilers the Republican Party at the same time the Green spoilers the Dems.
E: Of course, if you really want to make a protest vote “on principle” for a third party, go ahead, just don’t think you’re doing anything other than making a statement unless we’re in a fringe scenario. Well, a fringe scenario even farther afield than “Donald Trump is the Republican candidate”.
The off-parties would have to win states to affect the electoral vote total. Not very likely. Much more likely that they’d dilute votes for one of the two major party candidates and throw a state to the opponent.
If you vote Green, it’s probably because you’re a hardline liberal. The greens, however, do not stand a snowball’s chance in hell. They just don’t. They cannot run a decent campaign. Even if they did somehow rise to extreme national prominence, the fact is that all this would accomplish is splitting the left-of-center vote between two parties, while the right-wingers celebrate the ability to win elections with a mere 45%/40%/35% of the vote. Principles matter, but principles without pragmatism is just so much piss in the wind. By voting Stein in the upcoming election, you are not furthering liberal ideals. All you’re doing is letting your principles blind you to what needs to be done.
Seriously, this is not a hard concept. If you care about liberal causes, you hold your nose and vote democrat. You join the party, try to work to change it from within. Because splitting the vote is a good way to ensure that despite there being a strong majority of liberals both in the country and at the voting both, a regressive conservative gets elected instead, because liberals are too busy squabbling amongst themselves as to who’s more willing to save a fucking baby harp seal.
Stein doesn’t need to endorse Clinton. However, by campaigning at all, she is effectively giving Trump the biggest fucking endorsement you possibly could. The same endorsement Nader gave Bush in 2000: “I’d rather see my side lose to you than cave on my principles at all.” That’s not principled. That’s incredibly fucking stupid.
Yeah, that’s what it is. Bernie. Yeah. Must be. Not the last 24 years of the Clintons turning the Democratic Party into a guaranteed loser hated by self-described “patriotic Americans.”
Hey, do you remember Ross Perot? You know how he got a bunch of previously Democratic voters to vote for him & not Mr Clinton because of NAFTA? Yeah, those voters are largely still around. And they’re going to break for Trump by huuuge margins.
You have to hope that a lot of the “smart Republicans” do like **adaher **and decide to vote for Clinton to counter all that. Because otherwise, wow. Can you say, “unexpected Mondale-class blowout”?
It’s sad that you think she can win. It’s funny, but it’s sad.
How is it you figure Trump is going to blow out Clinton? Is that a rational or a bitter analysis?
The Greens - and other third parties, progressive or otherwise - need to do what has been repeatedly pointed out above: start at the bottom rather than trying to pick off the top job on the assumption that policy and cultural change will somehow trickle down to the entire country. If you can’t get people elected on local councils and state legislatures you have no fucking hope of getting enough popular support to elect a President, and if your candidate does happen to fluke into the job he or she will spend all their time being ignored by a Congress filled entirely with members of other political parties with no incentive to help him or her.
After all this whining from **foolsguinea **about how Hillary and the DNC aren’t catering to his every desire, vague though they are, enough to get his vote, we now know he was never going to consider it anyway.
What else should no one take you seriously about, bro?
Or they could recognize the role that third parties actually play in US politics - to get an agenda item that hasn’t been ITHO sufficiently embraced by the real parties in the public eye. If they ever get enough support to be taken seriously, the party closer to that agenda item co-opts it.
Politically, the Greens (who BTW are just poll noise) are trying to get the Democrats to move a bit left. They aren’t trying to gain power themselves, and they’re succeeding very well at not doing it.
This is not a comment on the topic of the thread but a snide, personal attack.
Knock it off.
[ /Moderating ]
**Foolsguinea **and I are not exactly bosom buddies, but I’d actually *defend *him/her on this point. I don’t think s/he ever made a secret of being a “Bernie or bust” left winger who had no interest in voting for mainstream Democrats. So that does not strike me as any kind of switcheroo.
Nobody accused him of a switcheroo, I’m sure he’s been entirely consistent with his ridiculous position.
Bernie meets with Obama and Harry Reid today. Hopefully, they will whack some sense into Bernie. Sanders can play a role in the Clinton campaign, but all of his bellyaching and whining about the Democratic Party has got to stop.
Sanders meets with Obama, Reid ahead of final contest