Agreed. Sammy came into the league with power, but not Babe Ruth power.
Bonds, who probably wasn’t better than a 50-HR a year guy, was a legit power hitter even when he barely weighed 200 pounds.
I don’t believe in keeping people out of the HoF unless they’re double murderers.
I always thought baseball had a higher standard than the other sports.
Ty Cobb and Cap Anson are in it, so no.
I think Shoeless Joe Jackson and Pete Rose should be in it as well. There should be a plaque that explains their controversies but Christ, they were both great ball players.
To the best of my knowledge, (a) before steroids Bonds was a three-time MVP; and (b) the only guy who’s been an MVP more than three times is — uh, Bonds.
Ty Cobb was not the psychotic monster he’d been made out to be; about 98% of that was made up by Al Stump. Think of a crazy story about Cobb; it’s likely Stump invented it.
Cobb was an intense, arrogant man, but in his time wasn’t any less regarded than Ted Williams was in his, or Jose Bautista, or Bob Gibson.
Ty Cobb was not the psychotic monster he’d been made out to be; about 98% of that was made up by Al Stump. Think of a crazy story about Cobb; it’s likely Stump invented it.
Cobb was an intense, arrogant man, and a racist (but, then, most white men were then) but in his time wasn’t any less regarded than Ted Williams was in his, or Jose Bautista, or Bob Gibson.
I don’t disagree.
Bonds was legit, as was Clemens. You could argue that Clemens extended his career with 'roids, but he was a stud pitcher before the late 1990s, early 2000s.
Bonds, Clemons and Rose, for that matter, should all be in.
So Cobb really didn’t climb into the stands and beat the shit out of a heckler? Stump merely exaggerated the exploits of a world class scumbag. Cobb was a vile human being.
Both players would’ve been in the Hall sans chemical help. Both players would not be in the Top 3 to ever play the game (Bonds) or Top 10 pitchers ever without the help. Clemens’s 2004 and 2005 seasons with the Astros, when he was 41 and 42 years old, are just filthy. Fangraphs page: Roger Clemens - Stats - Pitching | FanGraphs Baseball BB Ref’s: Roger Clemens Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com 145 and 226 ERA+. In ~210 IP each year.
Nolan Ryan certainly achieved a lot in his 40s, with gobs of Ks, but never had the ERA of Clemens. Nolan Ryan Stats, Height, Weight, Position, Rookie Status & More | Baseball-Reference.com
Probably not on PEDs in the late 80s, but you never know…
Heh. When you put it like that — okay, sans chemical help Bonds is apparently one of the only guys to make it into the 300-300 club, and then he becomes the only guy to make it into the 400-400 club; and at that point you can make a case for giving him a spot in the Hall Of Fame, if not a case for the Top 3.
And then you look at his career after that, when (a) he becomes the only guy in the 500-500 club, and (b) there would be a case to be made for the Top 3. But he only puts up those numbers by — facing guys like Clemens? The year that Bonds picks up his 7th MVP, Clemens picks up his 7th Cy Young Award, and they only manage to do that by squaring off against each other?
RickJay:
Because Bonds was a proven steroid-user, and Clemens’s steroid-accuser was a proven liar.
I don’t think anyone really seriously doubts Clemens used, do they?
As to the claim Clemens and Bonds were not all time greats without steroids, I.m not sure.
We know Bonds starting using 'roids around 1999. 1998 was his age 33 season; his best comparison at that age was Frank Robinson. He was easily a Hall of Famer. Top 3 hitters all time, probably not, but he was headed for being the best left fielder who ever played. He age 33 year was incredible; he was still one of the best players in baseball. (As a side note, it is interesting to see that according to the analytics, his DEFENSE fell off very quickly one he started using.)
When did Clemens start using? I’ve seen a number of guesses but the consensus seems to be 1998; I’m not sure if it was before or after that season but let’s go with before. From 1986 to 1997 Roger Clemens was one of the greatest pitchers of modern times; 1997 might actually have been his best year, but he’d had so many of them. He won four Cy Young Awards and should have won a fifth and showed no signs of slowing down. If steroids helped him, they helped him, but Clemens was headed for a Tom Seaver type career anyway.
I would argue Clemens probably started using leading up to the 1997 season. He went from 3 of 4 years being very off from his former greatness to suddenly he was the best again. It was very suspicious. His Boston record might be enough to get him into the Hall and the Boston time was probably clean.
BOS (13 yrs) W-L: 192-111 .634 ERA: 3.06 GS: 382 CG: 100 & K:2590
But I really suspect it was leading into free agency that he started juicing and those 11 years are very tainted.
Clemens wasn’t falling off going into 1997 the way people say he was, though, and it was very stupid of the Red Sox to let him go somewhere else on a reasonable contract. in 1996 he went 10-13, but the Sox failed to score runs or play defense for him; seven of his losses were in games in which he gave up 3 runs or fewer, and he had five no decisions in games with three runs or fewer. His peripherals were all very good; he led the league in strikeouts, didn’t give up too many homers, walked a few too many guys but gave up few hits. By way of comparison, the Cy Young Award winner that year was Pat Hentgen, and deservedly so, but Hentgen wasn’t really that much better; their peripherals are all pretty much the same, except Hentgen walked slightly fewe guys and Clemens had way more strikeouts. Both pitchers actually averaged a Game Score of 57. But Hentgen went 20-10, because the Blue Jays were a better defensive team and scored runs for him.
1997 of course was an incredible year for Clemens, one of the best he ever had, and that’s an odd thing. But it wasn’t the same as Bonds, who suddenly became Babe Ruth in his late thirties, or Mark McGwire, who came back from injuries that appeared to be ending his career to become the greatest power hitter in baseball.