2020 POTUS Debate 1 (29 September) follow-along and discussion thread

Well, shit show it was as everyone has noted. Everyone unfortunately lived up to expectations. Trump was an outrageous television personality, Biden was an optimistic but somewhat befuddled, boring moderate who was only mildly effective, and Wallace was a guy who believed reason and appealing to Trump’s better angels was going to make for a lively but honest debate.

If all one cared about was “controlling the situation” then Trump won in the same sense that those who pour gasoline on themselves and self immolate control a situation. If you cared about anything else at all – like all of the rest of America, including the three people on stage last night – you lost. I do want to talk about the debate more because I convinced a family of Trump supporters to watch it much to my regret, but I will do that in a separate post. I want to speculate about the next debate for a moment.

First of all, as a long time registered Republican who hates Trump and everything he stands for, who believes Trump and McConnell are ruining our country and the entire world by extension, let me just say that if it was Bernie up there flinging shit with Trump I would stay home on election day and vote for neither just like I did in 2016 when I could not bring myself to vote for either Trump (and because of the announcement of reopening the e-mail investigation) or Clinton. I know many of the more progressive elements here are disappointed Biden was nominated, but he was the ideal candidate for me and I know several other registered Republicans who want to vote against Trump but like me are never going to vote for Sanders or many others in the Democratic party. Biden despite his faults is the guy who can win over moderate swing voters like me.

Agreeing to rules with Trump before an event is an exercise in futility. He is not going to abide by them, and as we all saw last night, no one can use his own bluster and the weight of his absurd spectacular statements against him, he is jiu Jitsu proof. I don’t see that changing in future debates and I want to think about what CAN be done and it seems the opening statement is going to be the only thing that matters in the next debate. There were no opening statements in this debate; will there be opening statements in the next two debates?

I think something like this might be effective:
“Good evening moderator(s), thank you for this opportunity.” Then look up into the camera and address the nation. “I want to apologize to the American people who tuned into the last debate because they did not get what America deserves, a thoughtful and thorough investigation of the policies and ideals that will guide each candidate if he is elected to the next presidential term. I hope I have an opportunity to express my ideas, my plans and policies that I believe will lead our nation into a healthier, safer, more prosperous future. There are plenty of things we can do better and I want to address them all. I want to be examined and questioned by the moderators and held to account for my actions and my plans. I would like the moderators to question my opponent and hold him accountable . . . both on this stage tonight, and for his actions for the last four years.” Then shift back and address the moderator(s) directly again.

“I do not want to participate in a reality TV spectacular tonight. We are here to discuss the administration of the United States government and that is a very serious business. The last presidential debate devolved into lies and posturing and accusations and insults. I have to admit, I allowed myself to be frustrated by the events and occasionally replied in kind. The American people deserve better, our nation is facing some serious challenges and I believe we can work together and solve them all. But we can’t solve anything when we are just bullies. So, no matter how frustrated or insulted I am tonight I am going to behave in a dignified manner because I believe to solve problems we have to be dignified and mature and resilient. I believe I can convey more in silence and with dignity than a charging bully disregarding the rules and posturing like a lesser primate. If my opponent refuses to live by the rules (which his taxes prove he is not very good at doing-zing!), I will simply wait for the moderators to regain control and I believe they will be wise enough to allow me to finish my statement and rebut any distraction that might be introduced. Leading this country is a complicated and difficult job; it takes more than bluster to do it well.” Look back at the cameras- “I look forward to lively but civil debate tonight…. I hope we get one.”

Then, every time Trump lapses back into his standard tactics, he can literally shrug, roll his eyes and hold his hands as if presenting the featured trained monkey. He will have to pause and gather himself then decide if he should finish what he was going to say or address the distraction being lobbed against him – ideally both.

I think the grin/laugh he tried and failed to pull off last night was his coach’s suggestion to just laugh off all the absurd shit they knew Trump was going to say; it didn’t work well as we all saw. Would this approach work? I am sure the verbiage can be much better, but the tone and message are important because it sets an expectation of Trump being a complete ass (which he will eventually be), and it admits a small misstep but demonstrates he learned from it. It might be the only time he gets to speak uninterrupted – does this hit his message pretty well and give the audience a chance to see Trump for who he is?

One last thing, Biden should also rehearse this line and drop it into the debate where it will fit:
“He was asked to tell the Proud Boys to stand down – instead he told them to stand by. Either he doesn’t know those two things have an opposite meaning, or he called them to arms. Which do you think it was?”

I hear you.

I posted more or less the same suggestion for an opening statement in the thread about whether Biden should participate in the next debates. Like you say, it conditions everyone to recognize the interruptions as Trump being an asshole, not a both-sides thing.

Well put!

FWIW, a new Rasumssen poll just hit FiveThirtyEight: 48% approve, down from 52% last week. This does not bode well for Trump.

Or a shock collar.

I’m still advocating for a punch in the mouth.

I’m surprised Biden didn’t cite Trump’s rally in Tulsa when Trump bragged about this huge crowds. We already know that’s a sore spot with Trump.

There can’t be a “mute button” unless the candidates are set up in a way that they can’t hear each other without a microphone. Otherwise the candidates would still be talking over each other but the audience couldn’t hear the “muted” one. It’d be more of a shitshow.

So, it’d have to be a debate held entirely on video. Oddly enough, now would be the only time that a setup like that would be acceptable, with covid and all.

They could put a tall clear plastic divider between the two, that would significantly dampen direct interference that the other candidate could hear or be picked up by a microphone. Not total silence, but lower the annoyance enough that you would not struggle to talk over it. It would sound like feeble mumbling in the background.

Of course at this point Trump would just walk over and hover behind him like he did Hillary and try to seize Biden’s open mic. It’s how his reptilian brain operates.

I believe you, and if you’re right then he was the right nominee because of course those swing voters are important.

But from my point of view, this debate was more evidence that Biden is not actually well suited to this role. Last night would have been a shitshow regardless of who was up there, but I feel that basically any of the other dem candidates would have done better simply by being quicker on the draw. It wasn’t just Trump interrupting, it was Biden’s inability to make quick, coherent points.

FTR, I don’t think the debates should be based on quick jabs, but that’s the format we’ve got.

Finally, you may not like Sanders on policy, but I don’t see how you could imagine him “flinging shit”; he’s one of the best there is for focusing on policy and describing it in a digestible way.

The one thing I would have liked to see from Biden was turning that disaster against Trump. It would not have been hard:

“What we are seeing right now is the reason that Donald Trump is a failed president. He is incapable of listening. He did not listen to the scientists when they told him COVID would kill hundreds of thousands of Americans. He did not listen to his economic experts when they told him that ignoring the pandemic would be disastrous to American jobs. He did not listen to his foreign policy advisors when they told him that Putin is not our friend. Donald Trump is incapable of listening, and we are seeing that on full display here tonight. A president has to listen, and Donald Trump can’t do that.”

thank you and mr hamill. i really needed that laugh.

You answered your own question. I’m not a huge Biden fan - mainly because he is too old, and has been unimpressive in various respects for decades. But I’m HUGELY anti-Trump, and Biden is the only realistic alternative (Fuck you! - any 3d party voters.)

I only watched part of the response to the first question, but my wife’s and my initial reaction was, boy, did Biden look old. In his response, he seemed to misspeak several times. And tho he said Trump lied, it could have been hard to notice in the BS format.

We were disappointed, but it sure isn’t changing our vote. And I don’t know whose vote would change. I can imagine some people might have been turned off by Biden’s apparent age and befuddlement, but some would also be turned off by Trump’s bluster. What purpose are these debates supposed to serve, and who are they supposed to appeal to?

People say Trump violated the debate rules. WERE there any rules? I thought Wallace said each could respond for 2 mins, then a back and forth “discussion” or somesuch. Which seemed custom designed to allow Trump to bluster and bully. Hard to imagine how ANYONE could have come off well against that. You either get into a shouting/interrupting/name-calling match, or you appear weak as he steamrolls you.

Wrestling a pig - you end up w/ shit on ya, and the pig enjoys it.

The fear on Bidens’s side is that the disappointment you express might cause some people who would otherwise vote for Biden to not show up. Because it’s really two steps: convince someone to vote for you and then convince them to actually vote. Biden probably has already done enough of step one (if literally every registered voted it is almost certain he would win), so now he needs to make sure step two happens.

So basically what Trump is trying to do is spew enough shit that folks will get disgusted and just not vote.

He has turned what used to be at least a somewhat useful means for both candidates to explain their goals and policies into a spectacle to turn the American people against their system of government.

I watched for a bit but clocked out after Trump shouted down Biden talking about his dead son Beau’s national service to slander Biden’s other son Hunter as a disgraced coke head.

Both sides.

That’s a great response and I agree with it, but that’s a long speech to present against the shouting. I’d bet that Biden had something like that in his pocket, but didn’t get a chance to get it out.

Even better. The optics of Biden calmly saying this over Trump’s incoherent blather drives home the point.

This is a good point, but I believe the most important parts of being president are not the quick action things – they are the things that take time to ponder and make many drafts of before reaching an optimal solution. I think Biden should say something like: “I don’t talk as fast as my opponent – I surely don’t talk as MUCH as he does, but the things I say have been thought about and vetted, not fired from the hip. This is the job of administrating a large a proud nation not a gunfight outside a saloon.”

As for Bernie, I tolerate him better than any in my circle. I know one guy who has to go take his medication every time Sanders visage appears on the FOX News screen (the only news source in that particular home). By flinging shit I did not mean he says anything as absurd as Trump does. I just meant that I have seen him raise his voice and be … forceful; that may play well to the left like he is standing up to the bully but to the conveyable right it is just the other side of a screaming match.

A local former Republican candidate for state office told a room earlier this year: “Great, Trump or Sanders - can’t this country nominate a candidate I can cast a vote for without being sick to my stomach?” When Biden was nominated, Arizona went purple, with Sanders we would be MUCH more red and McSally would have a prayer of being elected.

Absolutely, Biden missed several shots. When Trump bragged about his crowds: “Ask Herman Cain’s family how they feel about that.” Or when Trump mentioned Biden’s college and called him stupid: “You want to talk about college? At least I didn’t pay someone to take my SAT’s.”