25 things which make it hard for me to believe in God

Great Debates
101

This makes absolutely no sense. Jesus is God. So God saved us. But what did he save us from? From his own condemnation. Why were we condemned? Because our foreparents messed up in the Garden of Eden by disobeying God. How did they disobey God? They talked to the evil Serpeant and ate the evil apple after God told them not to, even though God created the evil Serpeant and the evil apple knowing good and well what would happen. We’re supposed to recognize that we as human beings suck and everything bad that happens is because of our suckitude. But we didn’t create ourselves. Nor did we create the condemnation that we were somehow rescued from. How is such a relationship conducive for unconditional love and appreciation.

Christians tell us we shouldn’t resent God for 1) creating temptuous sources of evil and deliberately placing them in close proximity to us, knowing how weak and stupid we are (though they would never think to test their own children in this way, heavens no) 2) punishing us for the sins of foreparents, 3) putting us on a 2000 year long guilt trip by sacrificing his son (himself?) on our behalf, when we never asked him to, rescuing us from a punishment that genuine love would have never instituted, and 4) making it all so complicated and illogical that you have to lobotomize yourself to sincerely believe it. Not only are we not supposed to be resentful, we’re supposed to be worshipful and appreciative. A sadistic narcissist. That’s who we’re supposed to love.

Actually, it is complicated. An ultimate sacrifice means giving up something and never getting it back. Such as one’s life. If God is Jesus and Jesus is God, and God sacrificed Jesus on our behalf, then God sacrificed himself. But no, not really. He’s still around, as is Jesus. Jesus went to hell for a few minutes, but as God he created hell. As the All-Knowing, he was already familiar with the pain and misery there. And he also knew he wasn’t there to stay and that he was going to rise from the dead and grow up to be Jesus Christ Superstar. Maybe Jesus on Earth wasn’t as all-knowing as he became once he ascended into the heavens and reunited with his father. But then that means that he is separable from God, he isn’t God, and therefore the Trinity is bullocks. No one has given me an explanation that makes sense.

The Holy Spirit is another weird thing, but I can understand it a mite better than the Father and the Son. However, I don’t understand why it has to be conceptuatized as an entity that can be summoned and beseeched (as is done in Pentacostal faiths).

(You do know Mary ain’t in the Trinity, right? And only Catholics believe she serves any spiritual function.)

Seems to me, as a non-believer-who-really-wants-to-believe, the illogical Trinity and the horrific concept of original sin are examples of unnecessary complications that impede rather than facilitate belief. The emotionally needy part of me is more than willing to fall for an all-loving, merciful, forgiving God (which is why I think the world has so many Christians…their god is just so perfect). But this construct is in direct conflict with a God that would create a world where there is such thing as “original sin”, where we have to believe he intentionally killed himself and then resurrected himself in order to save us from the hell he created. But oops, not really! The door of the escape hatch only opens if we believe that it all happened. Jesus saves the easily convinced, but not the Doubting Thomases. The real Thomas was convinced by being presented with empirical evidence. Too bad for the rest of us!

At least the myths of the Greek’s gods and goddesses made some kind of sense. And no one ever tried to tell delude themselves into thinking love motivated their capricious behavior.

102

Pssstt…monstro…I think you’ve been whooshed.

103

From most of these posts, it appears that believers just make ONE god different
to suit their needs instead of having many gods to suit many needs. Downsizing.
Now if they could just let go of one more…

104

Please read my whole post. I gave you the word of catholic priests, nuns and lay people plus some bible quotes. Refute with sources and not opinion, please.
We studied, took tests and wrote papers on what to do when Jesus comes back and divides the people. Catholic high school too. What catholic told you no rapture?

105

Religious people are very egocentric, assuming God made the universe for them. Maybe god made the universe for some totally different race. That god wouldn’t have waited 14 billion years to get his people created, would show up sometime, and wouldn’t inspire a Bible that is a load of hooey. Maybe he raptured his people, or did whatever it was to fulfill their purpose, billions of years ago, and we’re just hanging around here until he gets around to turning off the lights.

So, I think you made an excellent point.

106

Actually, I went to a Catholic grade school and a Catholic high school, and I don’t remember anyone ever mentioning the rapture.

I do, however, remember being told that hell was eternal torture in fire, complete with demons and all the other trimmings. This was repeated often, but tapered off a bit toward the end.

107

Is Jesus coming back and dividing people the rapture theology? I didn’t think so.

108

Yep. Grew up Catholic, mass every week, Sunday school every sunday, theology classes at university. No Rapture.

109

Okay, so js, hotflung, you weren’t taught the rapture, revelations, Jesus putting the good on his right, the non-believers on his left. If I were religious, I could say my Roman Catholic education was more thorough, but in reality, we see even, more and more and more reason NOT to believe since none of these religious sects-- as close as they are-- can decide what’s most important about it.

Weston: Reason #26

110

That’s not the Rapture, dude. That’s the parousia – the second coming, judgement day. The Rapture is the belief that there will be a preliminary airlifting of sufficiently Christian individuals prior to a period of tribulation, THEN followed by the second coming and day of judgement. It’s a non-Biblical bit of 19th Century evangelical protestant, mostly American folklore (so is the Antichrist, for that matter). I assure you, the Catholic Church does not, and never has had any truck with Rapture theology.

111

Does this link clear up anything on the rapture?

112

:smack: Of course, maybe we had a “let’s study Christians” week in grammar school.

In A Roman catholic Prep HS, we debated the importance of this belief in rapture
and if a non-believer really could be “saved”. Taught by Pallotine priests & brothers.
Y’all sure you ain’t Irish Catholic? :slight_smile:

113

That’s the pre-tribulation rapture, a belief that is a subset of the Dispensationalist view of the rapture. The Catholics (or any serious theologians) don’t hold this view, but the time when Christ comes to take his followers in all cases is referred to as “the rapture.” Catholics just usually don’t use that word. The event is based on 1 Thessalonians 4:17, “Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

As is my understanding.

114

Okay, Romans, Thesealonians… it’s coming back now.
But the only “pre, pres, and post” I’m familiar with is on my Peavy amp. :slight_smile:

Thanks raznabel-- er, razncain. (guess I mix them up too…)

115

Yes, the word “Rapture” comes from the Latin Vulgate translation of the Thessalonians verse (from the original Greek harpagesometha [“snatched up together”] to the Latin simul rapiemur to the participial form rapturo).

In that passage, Paul was answering a question about whether those who died before Jesus came back would still be able to go to Heaven. Here’s the whole passage:

Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. 14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. 18Therefore encourage each other with these words.
(Thess. 4:13-18)

He’s saying, don’t worry, the dead people will go up first and then you’ll join them in the air. This is about the Second Coming, not a preliminary pre-tribulation harvesting of souls. You are correct that the word “rapture” can sometimes be used to refer to the second coming, but those who believe in rapture theology are virtually always talking about a pre-trib event (which has no Biblical basis).

116

This is a bizarre accusation. Please provide cites.

I think the original line from Fiddler on the Roof was something like “May the Lord bless and keep them – far away from me!” I mention it because the movie did have something to do with prejudice. Misinformation can lead to prejudice.

117

I don’t know that I’d say nice, but part of me misses believing. I suspect that ardent believers are happier, on average, than skeptics.

That doesn’t mean that theism is the correct posiiton philosophically or morally. Just that it’s more comforting.

118

I can see where it might possibly give one a certain amount of europhia if they can really convince themselves of such a Being.

OTOH, conservatives may tend to have depression more than others (The Mind of the Bible-Believer, Prometheus Books). Cohen cites a few empirical studies which bare this out. They also tend to be more in need of exhortation and encouragement from others to help feed the delusion. It’s difficult to find a great deal of quantitative data on much of this, however.

119

Everyone I know who believes in god, who is not a small child, continues to believe because it’s nice.

120

Thought I would throw my two cents in, this way:
Why did God sacrifice Himself to Himself to change a rule He made Himself? … What was the sacrifice? He was immortal before, during, and after. He sacrificed … a boat load of pain that He could have foregone. He made Himself a beacon.
Why, if we are the warm, fuzzy centre of all creation, is the universe so incredibly massive? I mean, have you ever seen a pictrre of the known universe? I saw one on astronomy picture of the day. Its unbelievable! There’s something like 40 billion galaxies, each with about 100 billion stars. And that’s only the stuff we know about! It seems so arrogant to bvelieve that of all that, there’s oinly one species on one planet in one solar system in one galaxy that actually matters. … I rather doubt we are, and there is really nothing that specifies humanity is much of a pinacle. Some people may think Earth is the baby crib of the universe, but I suspect it is more of a Devil’s Island. The way I read the scriptures, there is really only Heaven, or not-Heaven. This isn’t Heaven, we are in Hell. It can get worse. Think “Ground Hog’s Day”
Why did God take so long to tell us about himself? Richard Dawkins thinks our species is 250,000 years old. God only came along 3000 years ago(ish). What was he doing the other 247,000 years why we were killing eachother over caves and stuff? And why, if the message of God was so important, did it take about 1500 years for the Chinese to hear about it? Doesnt it make more sense that the Christian God was the product of a messianic middle east cult and there was nothing “divine” about it? … Even isolating “illumination” to the Judeo-Christian history, God leaves people to their own devices for most of the time, and gives humanity a nudge now and then. What will we really do, if we think no one is looking?
The trinity doesnt make any sense., I mean none AT ALL. Words mean things and this whole"God exists in three Persons and one substance" thing just makes no sense. There is literally no logic to that senence. … Networking. The Holy Spirit is a networking device, connecting God and man. Christ showed how it is done. We don’t do so well. When Christ said, “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father” … He meant there was no disagreement between them. Christ communed with God, and knew what to do, and when. We are supposed to follow that example. Christ told Thomas, “I am the Truth, and the Life, and the Way. No one comes to the Father, but by Me”. Thomas, you been with Me three years. How is it you don’t know what to do?
Terminally ill kids. … Human life is brutal. Rumor has it a few have been spared, but that is somewhat debatable as to whether death was avoided. If we have an immortal soul, there is likely a lot more going on that we know about.
No miracles nowadays. God never had a problem meddling in peoples lives before. Why has he suddenly got quiet at just the same time our species has figured out hoiw to record and analyse things? … Miracles only happen when people get off of the script, or to illustrate there is more to life than what we see. Even most of the miracle workers die in pain, it seems.
If Heaven is perfect happiness, and Hell is the opposite, how can a mother be happy in heaven if her son is sent to hell? If we’re changed THAT MUCH bny going into heaven mightn’t we as well be dead? … probably a matter of reference, since we don’t know much about either heaven, or hell. I suspect souls are not created by human birth, but rather placed. Ecclesiastes… The spirit returns to God, who gave it.
The concept of eternal punishmnt is unjust. Even Hitler doesn’t deserve eternal punishment. … Eternal punishment, is probably the stubborn person who refuses to get in the life boat. Matter of choice, it seems. Humanity is inherently stupid.
The ‘one size fits all’ concept of hell as a punishment is very unjust. Why should a law abiding atheist and Hitler get the same punishment? Remember, the majority of Christians should (if they follow their doctrine properly) believe that faith is essentia;l to be saved. … Why would anyone suspect punishment isn’t custom fitted?
Why does god require we worship him? He’s supposed to love us, right? Well, I love my cat but I don’t demand he worships me even though I am (I like to think) a superior being. … What is worship? Living ones live accordingly. Singing songs, and groveling is optionional. People who worship God walk the talk. People always do what they believe.
The concept of heaven is one of eternal worship of GOd. Wouldn’t that get boring after the first hundred billion trillion years? Its all very well saying that heaven by definition ius always blissful but you have no way of saying why that may be, given wha the Bible actually says about it. Your just saying “God will fix it when you get there”. … Worship is just living one’s life accordingly, one day at a time. Not boring.
The Bible contradicts itself all over the place. I trust i don’t need to cite this. … I do think there are translation and interpretation problems. People are stupid.
The Bible contains nothing that couldnt have been written by a man or woman living in 1st century palestine. … Indeed. Try reading Fan Fiction. A lot of entertainment.
God doesn’t answer prayers. No matter what subjective experiences you may have had, studies have been done which prove this. … Nothing fails faster than prayer. I doubt people even understand the process, beyond pleading with the Powers That Be.
The gospels were written 70-100 years after Jesus died. Thats plenty of time for hearsay and conjecture to creep into the story even if the basics were true. … Quite true.
The creation myth has been debunked. If genesis is untrue, God had much less reason to send down Jesus because there was no such thing as original sin. … We don’t even know who, or what we are. What would we know about our own original sin?
There are LOADS of logical problems with the Christian idea that God is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. If God is omniscient that means he must know everythng, including everything man knows. That means he must know lust and envy. If God knows lust and envy, He must have feelings of lust and envy. THat means he’s not perfect. The idea of a perfect God is self defeating. … Lust, and envy, is defeated by awareness.
Another logical problem with the idea of a perfect God is that, because a perfect being knows absolutely everything, God can’t have free will. God knows his choices in advance. … Free will is about individual human choice.
There is as much hard empirical evidence for the existence of God as there is for the ecistence of the flying spagetti monster. Seriously. If God does exist then there is absolutely no difference between our universe and a universe where he doesn’t exist. … Once the premise, “God exists”, is in motion, the one where He doesn’t, is impossible. Even taking all of the UFO sightings, that have beings driving them, just ONE valid sighting, down through the centuries, makes extraterestrials exist. Their relationship to us, is an unknown.
There are still people in the world who haven’t heard of Jesus. If Jesus’s message is so important, why has God let this happen? … Because we are immortal. Everyone gets their choices.
Christians say the universe is finely tuned to support life and that is evidence that God exists and created the universe for us. But our planet is the only one we know that supports life and even earth is a very dangerous place with its earthquakes and volcanos and tsunamis and hurricanes and tornadoes and ice ages dangerous diseases. Why would God create such an inhospitable planet for us? … because human life sucks, and then you die. Adversity is the rule.
If God created everything, that means he also created smallpox, which has killed more people in the 20th century than all the 20th century dicatorships combined and multiplied by a hundred. … Absolutely. It isn’t about whether we live or die, or whether we hurt.
If God gives us free will to suffer that means that God must want us to suffer. THat means God approves of suffering generally. … The concept of the Fall of Man suggests we chose what we get. We have amnesia. Doesn’t matter if we do not remember. Not important.
Why won’t God heal amputees? I mean, when Christians talk about God saving or curing someone, there’s always a natural explanation. Why doesn’t God ever do anything which cant be easily explained in natural ways? … From my observation, such cures are rather rare.
Terminally ill kids. That one bears repeating. … That one really does bite.

I can see the rocks coming now. :slight_smile: