Zumba:
Hmm… odd that they don’t mention real rifles, pistols, shotguns, explosives… except that’s probably another article, perhaps a felony instead of a misdemeanor…
(Leaded cane??? WTF?)
Anyway, my point was that it didn’t say “weapon”… 
Also, I should clarify that in my previous post:
should really be something more like:
mrblue, You were right about the word weapon. Sharp pointed instrument seems to me to be even more vague.
Anyway, the point is that in some areas bringing a knife to school is a crime. I would venture to say that there are many places besides NC that have similar laws. We aren’t exactly ahead of the times here.
Hopefully the administration where Lyllyanlives is more reasonable then it is here. I would still recommend at least talking to a lawyer. She says they are having a hearing next week. I wouldn’t like to go to the hearing with out knowing what they might be able to do and how to prevent anything to crazy from happening.
(Guns etc are a felony. Do you have to be right about everything? 
)
FYI, Leaded Cane = Billy Club, and others.
Comments like this piss me off. Unless the handbook is much more clear on the subject than the legal statues pasted here, I’d not accept this philosophy. If the handbook specifically says “no pocket knives of any kind” then I’d accept what you deem to be a acceptable suspension. Personally, if she was sent home from school at the thrid period, I’d say she’s served her punishment. Otherwise the “just grin and bear it” idea is stupid. Never accept unjust punishment because standing up for yourself is more effort than its worth. I’d be embarassed if I told my children to do something like that. Yes, if they can prove that she had ample instruction that bringing this item to school was against the rules, then some punishment is fair, however one must also judge whether it suits the intention of the rule, and if it was merely an honest mistake when weighing the severity of the punishment.
Re: The pacifier. Yeah, might be something to pay attention to, it is a fixture in the Raver/Club kid scene. She could be involved in various party drugs which inspire the need for these pacifiers, or she could be implying that she wants to be associated with those who do to fit in. But then again, since I’m old enough to be out of the loop, the pacifiers may have gone mainstream and its nothing more than a fashion statement. Remember when wearing hats cocked to one side was strictly a gang banger thing? Well it didn’t take long before everyone, even the most sheltered mamma’s boys were wearing them like that. Didn’t mean a damn thing except that they probably liked listening to Dr. Dre and Snoop.
I’d say everyone has to be careful not to hurt someone when their knees jerk.
Ok, Ok, the pacifier thing has gotten blown way out of proportion. Since her first teeth came in, LittleB has chewed on things. She especially likes the smell of leather, as does her father, and she just wants something to chew on. This habit has decreased yearly. The pacifier is an actual infant pacifier. We were looking her baby pictures not too long ago, and she saw one picture with her and a beloved pacifier. I bought her a new one, as a joke as as a symbol to her that she is still my baby. She is not into drugs at all, and I have overheard her telling a friend that if they tried drugs, she would no longer be their friend. She is the only one among her friends who has a pacifier, so it’s not a social thing, either. Yes, it is infantile, but that’s just her. There, hope that clears that issue.
Now, as to why she had the knife in the first place. My husband collects knives, I have a knife, our older daughter has a knife. We have knives everywhere, mostly the older kind that your granddad might have carried, but also knives made from exotic woods, Native American knives etc… LittleB had a knife in her office because she had opened a package the night before, and when she had used it, placed it on her desk along with the other contents of her pockets. This morning, she scoops up her stuff and puts everything in her pocket. A mistake, an oversight.
I understand that said knife is against school policy. I have no problem with that. Nor do I have a problem with the suspension (out of school, no access to school grounds at all). She made a mistake and should pay for it. What I am against, however, is the possibility of suspension for more than 5 days, the possible expulsion from school, and the principal’s implication that she may be referred to the “alternative school”. To me, that last is like sending a person to the Federal Pen for a traffic ticket. She has never been in trouble before. She talks, though, alot. But as far a violence, there is not a violent bone in her body. She does not make threats in jest, does not watch violent movies or games, and does not hit. Never has. The worst she will do to you is hug you and not let go. This is a child who will run to Dad to kill a bug!
I do not expect “special” treatment, but I do expect FAIR treatment. She had fogotten about the knife completely, and when she was called to the principal’s office, she thought she was getting into trouble because one knee of her jeans was ripped! Does that sound like someone who constitutes a threat?
As an aside, while we were looking through the student handbook, she pointed out that the punishment for having posession of an illegal substance was LESS than that of having a 2" knife.
Yes, yes I do. 
Lyllyan: Personally I’d fight the suspension, though it might be too late for that now. I wonder if it would be possible to calmly arrange a one-on-one meeting with at least one member of the review panel beforehand, preferably the most reasonable one if you know their personalities. At minimum, you might get a feel for the general opinion in the matter–hopefully they’re rational human beings and recognize that perhaps somebody overreacted (and if not, you can at least be prepared for the review board with some strong arguments).
If it looks bad for your side and you think the local news services can be counted upon to provide fair coverage, you might want to make the story public. After all, your school board is probably an elected body, right?
Originally posted by mrblue92
“IMHO, zero tolerance requires zero thought, and that’s why the weak-minded like it.”
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
This may very well be your answer. I just pulled out my sons handbook, (he also started 9th grade last week) it’s very specific and clear that no pocket knives (among other things)are permitted and that the consequence is suspension until a hearing. After the hearing they “may” be permitted at the alternative high school campus.
I’m not saying it’s right, I’m just saying it’s very clear in the handbook for the kids in our district. I’m off to remind KidSthrn accent of this policy and make sure his swiss knife stays with his camping gear here at home.
Zero tolerance is ridiculous because it removes one of the most important elements of crime from consideration: intent. In the law, intent has more of a bearing on the severity of punishment than any other factor. Running down a person on the sidewalk in cold blood for hire often results a capital charge. Running over a pedestrian because the driver was fiddling with the radio is many times not even prosecuted as a homicide. What’s the difference here, since two people both died? Intent. Zero tolerance means that that Lyllyanette is subject to the same punishment that a teenage psycho would receive for bringing a Ghurka knife to school with the intent of hacking a fellow student’s head off if he got the chance.
Eliminating the consideration of intent in judicial hearings is just plain stupid and is, in IMHO, a violation of the spirit of the Eighth Amendment.
I think this is insanity. There’s nothing here that couldn’t have been handled by the teacher or principal reminding her of the rule and confiscating the knife for the remainder of the day.
The educator’s primary job is to make sure the kid gets a good education – I’m not sure how suspending her indefinitely (or at all) aids that goal.
I’d have a bit more sympathy with this decision if the knife was a razor or dagger (although I used to carry a small pocket exacto knife all the time because it was so damn useful) but I can’t imagine anything more utterly useless in a fight than a pocket knife. Tell me, does this school also confiscate the #2 pencils?
Some good thoughts on zero tolerance can be found at
http://www.thisistrue.com/zt.html
I’ll have to be the lone dissenting voice. Although I don’t believe your child should be suspended for the rest of the year, Lyllyan, I do believe that the school isn’t over-reacting on this matter. A 2 1/2" blade is enough to seriously hurt someone, or disfigure them. Much has been said about “intent”, but how is the school suppose to divine her intent in carrying the knife? From what you or your daughter say? Every child and every parent would claim innocence in the same circumstance. Is the next child’s intent as benign? The school is charged with protecting all the students and faculty. How are they to do this even-handedly? Do they just punish the kids who look like they’re aggresive? Those children’s parents would be screaming harrasment. Do they wait until after there is an incident and them punish the offender? No, they must try to prevent violence. They spelled out the rules, and your daughter, although unwittingly, broke them.
I’m not a huge fan of zero tolerance. I think that first offences and minor infractions should be dealt with accordingly, but I also think the school should have the right to punish offenders of such important rules. Perhaps the penalty is greater than that for possessing drugs, but even with drugs, how likely is that person to kill someone? They are trying to protect your child’s life. That’s the larger picture.
StG
(Qualifications: incoming senior in high school, racially and economically mixed school, never been suspended or expelled, served on student advisory board, i.e. student liasons to school board about student concerns regarding rules, policies, etc.)
The main advantage of zero tolerance, I believe, is the removal of the problem of determining intent. Intent would be hard to determine or prove in most cases like these.
If a student is turned in by another student, and the one with the knife is brought down before anything happens, how can intent POSSIBLY be used? Most all students would deny intent, whether there or not. Start guessing about intent and my guess is that people will start calling discrimination. What would you base it on? Previous record? Ok, but doesn’t everyone who starts start with a clean record? Student accounts? I don’t think that would be a good idea.
I know that in my school (District #118, Illinois), possession of a knife is automatic expulsion. However, our district defines expulsion to be any suspension over ten days. Our Dean has made the statement that if one suddenly remembers one has a knife on them accidentally, one should bring it to the dean. The Dean said he would then refer the student to the Board for expulsion (mandatory), but testify on the student’s behalf for an eleven day expulsion (the minimum allowed). This allows for some room to breathe, but I think would be fair.
Another thing to remember is that (at least here) everyone attends an assembly where one of the deans goes over most of the rules (especially additions or changes) and everyone must sign and return a statement saying you have read the rules and agree to be bound by them.
Discussion about public high schools are my specialty!
I’m not always right but I always have an opinion.
I wish we had zero tolerance back when I was in high school. It might have stopped all those horrible stabbings.
**
What are those things called? protractors? something like that, the ones you use to draw perfect circles… anyways, incredibly dangerous, yet falls under the category of “instructional supplies” so you can have one, on school grounds. In no way am i saying that you shouldn’t be able to have a protractor at school, it’s very useful if it’s used properly. But during my time at school, i’ve seen many people getting poked with the damn things. My point, if somebody wants to stab you they will, taking away a girls pocket knife won’t stop that. If she was waving it around at someone, expel her on the spot. If she simlpy has it and some rat tells on her, sure take her to the office and take it away. Then inform the parents and let them deal with it, case closed.
From what i read, i can tell you it was not a “mistake” that she brought it to school. I once brought a knife to school by mistake, i had been using it out at scout camp and left it in my pants. i didn’t say “hey check out what i brought to school”. why? Because that implies you brought it on purpose, and that you want to show off.
And as for the rat… the rules of the schoolyard are there for everyones sake; breaking them is bad karma.
The other thing that really concerns me about this whole thing i everyone suggesting lawyers. Is that really necessary??? I mean shit, do we need them for every freaking problem we encounter in this world??? Just talk to the principal and get it sorted out. if they’re going to make an example out of her (which they might unfortunatly, seeing as it’s the begining of the year) it’s decided and you might as well start looking for a new school for her.
Oh, yeah, that would encourage me to come clean. Maybe it’s just me, but I was raised to believe that expulsion was something to avoid at all costs. Maybe it’s the fact that I come from a family of educators, but if I had been expelled, suicide would probably have been a serious contender to actually telling my parents what happened.
Jesus Christo! Why don’t we just guilotine all the little potential serial killers that bring knives to school? That would ensure at least one student would never again bring a knife to school again. I mean, come on, how many lives is a potential life saved worth to you all?
[/kneejerk]
Speaker for the Dead wrote
[quote]
There was a slashing incident at my school a couple months ago. A girl had a pocket knife (I forget the blade length… 4 inches maybe) and slashed another girl. The school realized that the victim wouldn’t even have scars, so all they did was ask the attacker (it wasn’t really, they were already in a fight when the knife appeared) to transfer out of my school. I think that’s a good idea, I mean, neither girl was traumatized, and though the media blew it way out of proportion, no one complained about the punishment of either girl.
[quote]
If you’re implying that a student slashing another student with a knife is a minor incident, that was “blown way out of proportion”, then I respectfully disagree. Entirely. In fact, I suggest (again respectively) that you lay off the crack pipe.
This sort of example is the reason that knives are disallowed. And typically, the rules are made very clear. It shouldn’t come as a surprise to any student. The rule is rational and well-known, and therefore infractions should be punished.
I’m beginning to think the zero tolerance rules are a necessary evil. They make it a lot easier to enforce rules that are intended to protect kids, since they leave little to no room for interpretation kids can’t get away with being caught with weapons. The school doesn’t have to try and explain to Mr. and Mrs. Badparents why their kid got suspended for having a switchblade when other kids in the class get away with having pocketknives. All you have to do to avoid problems is be careful about following the rules. Nobody is forcing anybody to bring knives to school.
You know, a lot of schools are putting in metal detectors. Maybe parents need to start investing in metal detectors at home. Then, when the kids are leaving for school, they go through the gate, and if they absent-mindedly stuffed a pocket knife or some other fearsome weapon of mass destruction in their pocket or purse, it would get caught before the kid gets sent to the gulag.
Sheesh.
and
:rolleyes:
Of course, my preceding post is just a joke. I mean, it couldn’t possibly work. The kid walks through on the way out the door to go to school and sets off the alarm. Mom says “Uh-oh, what have you got?” Kid says, “Oh, it’s just my keychain.” Mom says, “Oh, okay, well, have a good day at school.” Next thing you know, little Junior or Sally is doing 20 to life.
And no metal detector on the market will even detect a chicken finger.
Let me guess. Geometry was not your best subject. 
Compass. It’s called a compass. A protractor is used to measure angles.
<…ducks and runs…>