Slate addressed this very question today.
Yeah, his standup is outrageous, if by outrageous you mean he swears and says things in a way that are uncharacteristically blunt but not in themselves offensive. I only remember one rape joke and it was clearly at the expense of the rapist. I’m not easily offended with humor as long as the humor is punching down. Mostly he talks about his kids and his body falling apart and what vaginas look like and shit everyone can relate to.
The idea that swearing or using shocking language in a setting where people have come to see you do exactly that, is in any way comparable to forcing women to watch you masturbate, is disturbing.
In stand-up comedy culture? Absolutely. These people live on the road and hotels are their homes. I follow the Nerdist podcast which talks constantly about stand up comedy and interviews stand up comedians and it’s pretty clear that people go in and out of each other’s hotel rooms all the time. And yes, he’s definitely used his career clout to get away with it. Stand-up comedy is rather incestuous in that way, everyone knows everyone in the business. Throughout the years it’s been voiced by men and women alike that any stand-up comedienne who called ‘‘this certain very successful comedian’’ out would be blacklisted. It’s been an open secret for years. He also had a major split with Tig Notaro over his behavior, whose show he was producing.
But let’s push back on the underlying assumption you’re making here. Let’s say a woman follows him back to his hotel room because she wants to have sex with him. Then she changes her mind. He doesn’t let her go until he masturbates in front of her. There’s no ethical difference between that and if she went back with no intent whatsoever. It’s disgusting, sexually coercive behavior and she’s not responsible for it either way.
And let’s push back even further on the idea that being physically more powerful than your victim isn’t sufficient to constitute ‘‘leverage’’ over them. It’s sexually threatening behavior and your average woman, coming from your average man, would not likely know how to respond. This is never appropriate behavior, coming from anyone, for any reason.
Thanks.
Why someone went to his hotel room doesn’t matter. Violating consent is wrong if they went to talk business, and it’s wrong if they went to make out or even have sex. Violating consent is always wrong.
I’ve enjoyed his work for the most part but some of his standup stuff had a creepy vibe to me. Now I know why…I guess.
I’m sorry but a lot of that sounds like psychobabble. Weinstein masturbated into a potted plant because ''she is like dirt to him?" :dubious:
Well, I don’t have any better explanation. But this pinged my ‘‘woo psychology’’ meter.
This seems more even-handed.
Did you even read the quote at the beginning of the thread? They specifically tried to report on the issue, and found out they needed to remain silent to avoid hurting their career. So he definitely had clout.
You also seem to be pushing a victim blaming mindset. There are plenty of reasons to go back to a hotel room that aren’t sexual. Sure, if he lived in the same town and they met up at a hotel room, you could assume it was sexual. But not just because people agree to meet you at your temporary house.
Then there’s the actual action. He asked them. They laughed, thinking he wasn’t serious. Then he did it anyways. They voiced their displeasure, but he kept doing it. That’s sexual assault, no matter what expectations you try to come up with.
Finally, a quote from your earlier post:
Yes, because those things were sexual assault. That’s the entire point. These things have been allowed to happen for a long time. It’s why people talk about a “rape culture.” Sexual assault is a problem.
What Weinstein and Cosby have done have been done since time began, too. It’s still wrong.
Louis CK did an unwanted sexual act with these two female comedians. That is wrong. There aren’t any excuses for it.
(If these were the only incidents, then the best argument would be “I’m really sorry. I was young and didn’t know any better, and I have been trying to make up for this sort of thing, even in my act.” But he’s not.
Do you not understand his comedy? He’s not just saying outrageous things. He’s actually pushes a rather pro-feminist, pro-SJW message.
This is actually showing him to be a hypocrite, as well as a sexual predator.
I’m a fan, and when I heard earlier today that he’d suddenly cancelled his movie premiere and talk show appearances, I literally thought, “Christ, I hope he cancelled because he just got diagnosed with cancer, and its not that someone finally came forward about those harassment rumors.”
Because I can still enjoy his work if he’s got cancer.
During my own (largely abortive) comedy career, we hung out at late-night diners.
This would ring truer if he had been there with one woman, but not two. I’m not saying his actions were comprehensible; I’m saying, neither were theirs. This story is missing some details that would allow it to make sense.
I don’t find it implausible that two women would have this experience together. It’s not something you really expect in any context, so a large part of it must be surprise, confusion, probably some self-doubt. It takes some time for the brain to process something like this is even happening. And then… what? Physically attack? Most women aren’t going to do that. Their thinking was probably along the lines of, ‘‘Maybe if we just stand here it will be over soon.’’ They might have even rationalized it a bit. ‘‘Well, he’s only masturbating, but if we draw attention to it maybe he’ll try something else.’’ I don’t know, I wasn’t there, but I do understand typical responses to sexual assault.
The problem with this kind of post-hoc analysis is you can’t expect people in this situation to behave like you would from your rational, logical perspective because an experience like this takes your brain to an entirely different place. It can become entirely surreal and hard to even accept that it is happening, and the impetus to lie (or stand) still and do nothing is very powerful. As I’ve accumulated more and more information about trauma psychology over the years, the one thing I wish people would accept is that in any given situation, you’re not going to behave like you think you would. People who actually find themselves in bad situations beat themselves up for years after the fact for not doing what ‘‘any reasonable person would do’’ when in fact they did what most people do, which is nothing.
Yeah, same here. While the rumors were nonspecific and anonymous, I gave him the benefit of the doubt, more or less. Before the rumors, I watched his shows on Netflix and paid the $5 a couple of times to download his shows. His parenting humor is what hit home for me more than anything else.
Now? Fuck that guy. Yeah, he’s funny, but I’m not giving another cent to him.
Damn, I hate it when Gawker blind items turn out to be true.
Next, look out for Mariah Carey…
Oh, I’ve raved about his talent in the past. He’s one of the funniest acts I’ve ever seen. When I started hearing about the allegations I didn’t intentionally stop watching his shit, I just sort of stopped because I didn’t feel like it… plus his latest special seemed like kind of a flop. When Tig Notaro stepped away from him, that was a huge red flag, and my loyalties are to her if I had to pick.
But when I heard about the movie he made? Haaaa… no. My general rule of thumb is I can deal with separating the art from the artist as long as the artist doesn’t get their nasty shit all over their art. He violated that rule in a huge way.
It would be one thing if he appealed to sexist assholes, but he positioned himself as a feminist, or at least as someone who respects women, and he’s about to suffer for it.
How did he violate consent? In the stories I’ve heard, they accompanied him into his hotel room, he specifically asked them if he could do it and they said yes. He got explicit “affirmative consent” which is what feminists say they want men to do. And they could have stood up and walked out at any point if they didn’t like it. They chose to watch. In one case he merely asked, the woman said no, and he didn’t do it. One of the stories had him on the phone. That might have started without explicit consent, but she could have hung up if she wanted.
Is it wrong to engage in consensual sexual behavior others find disgusting or creepy? If so, then we’ll have to end the career of every gay man and every person with any fetish including any S&M. And nobody on the planet would consider it “sexual assault” if a woman asked a man to watch her masturbate, he said yes, and she proceeded to do so while he watched.
Is an ugly woman a rapist if a man voluntarily, but reluctantly has sex with her, but regrets it and denounces her 15 years later?
Are you people reading different news stories than me? Where did he violate anybody’s consent? It sounds to me like he’s getting shamed for having a fetish people find disgusting.
Cite for the “saying yes” part? “laughing it off” is not “saying yes”.
In the version of the story I read with the two female comics, they got up to leave and he blocked the door until he was done.
So, yeah…
What do you mean, “said yes”? The stories I’ve seen say that they “laughed off” the request because they thought he was joking. That’s not consent.
In any case, asking colleagues with whom you have no sexual relationship if you can take your dick out in their presence is already seriously skeevy and inappropriate.
Where are you getting this bizarre idea that sexual behavior in front of colleagues is okay as long as they have some kind of escape route? If you happen to be alone in the office, is it okay if your boss walks in naked and starts masturbating in your presence? If you don’t tell him to stop because you’re afraid of his retaliating in some way, does that mean you “consent” to his behavior?
This word “consensual”: I do not think it means what you think it means. FFS, thirdname, do you start masturbating when you’re on the phone to a business contact? Would it be okay if you noticed a business contact doing that to you?
I’m a person on the planet, and I would most definitely consider it sexual assault or at least sexual misconduct if a woman said that to a male business colleague with whom she had no sexual relationship. Especially if she’s in a position of power over him or can significantly impact his career in some other way. And especially if what you describe as his “saying yes” was actually just his laughing off the request because he thought she was joking.
What does “voluntarily, but reluctantly” mean? Is she in a position of power over him and exploiting his fear of the consequences if he refuses her? Then yes, that’s rape or at least coercive sexual misconduct, and it doesn’t matter if she’s ugly or not. (In the real world, as opposed to in your head, there are many situations in which men do not actually want to have sex even with non-ugly women.)
In the part where he masturbated in the presence of women who didn’t want him to do it and had only a professional relationship with him, not a sexual relationship.
The key point is that the people who found it disgusting were the professional colleagues he insisted on doing it in the presence of.
If Louis CK were masturbating as part of consensual sex play with his wife or girlfriends or hired sex workers, or in swingers’ sex clubs or in any other environment where everybody is knowingly and willingly there for sex, nobody would have any business objecting to it. But masturbating in front of your colleagues who don’t want to be involved in your sex life in any way is coercive, creepy and unacceptable.