Note the shifting pronouns in the mother’s speech. The whole article is a pretty good read. The reporter Julia Reischel covered all sides of the debate and wonder of wonders is actually informed on the subject. Kudos to the Voice for assigning a reporter to the transgender beat who knows enough to write about it. Let that set a standard for American journalism.
Nicole’s parents are going to enroll her in kindergarten in Broward County, Florida this year. Controversy is brewing already. Salon’s Broadsheet picked up this story and called for a public debate: Is allowing a 5 year old to transition “emotional neglect” — in the words of one critic—or is her mother right to support her daughter, because “I don’t want to take that child’s soul and squash it”—? Put yourself in that mother’s place.
Her mother supporting her sounds right to me (bearing in mind, I have no kids), but I think it’s too early to say she’s transgendered. IMHO an important facet of that is sexual in nature (i’m not suggesting a transgendered person can’t be gay), and so in my view it’s only at puberty (at the earliest) she’ll know for certain whether she’s female or male. Her parents should support her but be as careful not to “force” her into acting feminine the same way they succeeded in not forcing her to act masculine.
I’m not sure if that’s true. I’d rely on the opinion of psychiatrists there, but I know there isn’t a consensus.
Reading about the activists, I’m a little worried that this kid will be treated as a poster child instead of an individual human being. I know that people tried to make a ‘poster child’ story out of David Reimer, different as that story is from this one, and the results there were tragic.
You’re right, there isn’t a consensus; I’m pretty firmly in the “personal sense of gender requires some sexual feeling” camp, but i’m willing to admit there are many others who disagree, and with good reasoning.
Like you say, the David Remier case shows just how badly things can go when psychologists try to use children to test their theories; whatever does happen, it’s clear that it will have to be handled very sensitively. I have doubts that her parents agreeing to the news story was a good idea, even though it will help enlighten people on this issue.
Based on the kid’s behavior, I have to say I don’t see any way around it. Treat her like a girl, plain and simple. She sounds pretty sure. Yeah, I agree, she is young, but the track record of shrinks who insist that gender is a malleable characteristic (and thus changeable from what the child feels is natural) is abysmal. It’ll be tough on the kid at school-kids can (and will) be cruel. OTOH, no boy at 5 years old has developed to the point that transitioning to a girl would be difficult. I also don’t think the kid’s parents did her any favor by making news out of it, although that too might have been unavoidable, given the dramatic nature of the case.
I had the opportunity at the Trans Pride Day organized by the Coalition des transsexuelLEs et transsexuéEs du Québec to meet the parents of a little girl named Mathéa who, like Nicole, realized she was trans at a very young age. I also got to meet Mathéa herself after the presentation. The parents’ story describes a child who at the very least has intense and persistent gender issues. It’s not unfeasible to tell the difference between a child who is playing pretend and a child a very significant part of whose identity is coming to the fore.
Gender identity does, indeed, develop quite early - I was aware of being a boy at a very early stage, and that I was sure I was one even though I was different from many others. It stands to reason that a child who is trans might know that at a young age, too.
It’s obvious great caution is needed before anything irrevocable is done. One happy development is that we now have drugs that can forestall the process of puberty, but can also be interrupted at any time. If Nicole still identifies as a girl when she reaches her pubertal years, her boy-type puberty can be delayed until she reaches a sufficient age to make a decision regarding hormones and surgery, meaning it will be far easier for her to physically transition. And should she choose otherwise, she can go off the androgen blockers and male puberty will proceed.
In any case, whatever the outcome it seems clear now that Nicole, like Mathéa, is happier and more at peace with herself the way she is now. Many trans people would have given anything to have a childhood as their true gender.
I think this kid is way too young to know he’s transgendered (sorry but I’m not going to play along with the pronoun shift at 5 years old) and I think it’s ridiculous to start dressing him up like a girl just yet. That in itself could end up scarring the poor kid as it could lead to daily ass-kickings, harrassment and mockery if it goes on too long. Maybe it won’t happen in kindergarten but I taught second graders who already knew how to call each other “faggots.”
If it was my kid. I’d get him some psyche evaluations and find out if he needed meds or something. Maybe I’d even tolerate the girl-clothes at home to see if he’d grow out of it but no way would I let him do it at school and risk humilation or abuse.
If he still felt that way as a teenager, I’d probably be convinced he was eally TG but I wouldn’t just hop on that bandwagon at the whim of a near-toddler.
At age 5, boys and girls can look alike. They can both wear pants, have short hair, etc. I see no trying to dress differently problem. When I was a little girl, I despised dresses, curly hair, etc.
But I agree with Diogenes; 5 is too young to know for sure.
Also, I might addm it is vital not to mix up gender issues and sexual issues. Acting masculine or feminine is a social construct. Having a penis or vagina is sexual. A child can simply act feminine and not have to be sexually a girl.
I don’t ofte agree with you Dio, but that’s exactly what I was thinking. I can’t disagree with a single word in that post. I’d find the best psychologist or psychiatrist I could afford if I was one of the parents, and make sure that nothing irreversible was done while the child was still a child.
Dress him in gender neutral clothes until he’s older. He’ll be able to understand the social implications of cross gender dressing before he hits puberty and can decide then if he wants to put himself thru that. Once he hits puberty, it might not even be possible to cross dress convincingly-- I wouldn’t have been able to.
The story has MAJOR flaws in it. NO ONE is sexually aware at two years old, or even at 5 years old, unless there is some adult instruction, which is VERY inappropriate. Sure the kid speaks low when, in an interview, with the press, he speaks of his “penis” – he didn’t know he had one, or should be ashamed of it, until he was told what to say! I ask YOU – be honest, when you were that old what did YOU call it? You called it “wee-wee” or your “pue-pue” or something; you didn’t call it a “Penis” or a “Vagina” (unless you were taught to). It is where “potty” came from, nothing more, nothing less. Did YOU know what it was going to be used for in the future? Did you know that place on your body would make the difference between you being a “man” or a “woman” and would be one of the defining items with which you would base your gender identity forever? HELL NO you didn’t, and if you say you did – I am saying you are full of shit! A 5 year old can barely fathom “gender identity”. At that age, a person can almost begin to think “WHAT am I” – the person has not begun to develop the capacity for “WHO am I”. The brain doesn’t work like that, not at that age. I suppose you knew you were Krishna when you were 5 years old too. You were a BABY – babies have no sexual identity! Seriously -did you HONESTLY know at that age, one-day girls would have “boobs”, and boys wouldn’t? Hell NO you didn’t! Slamming definitions like this on a child, at such an early age is totally self-serving on the parent’s part, as well as the activists involved, and they all should be ashamed! It is going to mess that kid up for the rest of his life!
All through the story they refer to “Nicole” as a “woman” or a “man” – this is a little CHILD for Christ sake! All kinds of ADULTS are projecting all kinds of their own hopeful BULL SHIT into the kid’s brain. All trying to legitimize why they are the way they are. How fucked up can you get? The kid just wants approval, like all kids do. If the world gives HIM approval for being a HER, emulating a girl is what HE will do! This is AWFUL. Seems to me, mommy or daddy wanted to have a little girl very badly and it didn’t work out, so now Nicolas is “Nicole”, isn’t that tidy. Everyone is in denial about the fact that they had a little boy, even the boy. What the hell could he possibly know at his age? This is just sick and abusive. I think they should start saving for the Nicholas’ mental health fund now, not the Nicole college fund, because that family will be spending way more money on personal shrinks and family therapy than they ever will on school.
But for now, all these ADULTS are using a small child to further their own social agendas! They should be fucking ashamed! Just let the kid be a kid.
Janx didn’t bring up an invalid point. At age 5 I thought I peed out of my vagina and that was the extent of my sexual identity. Nearly everything you do at that age have no gender attached to it, it wouldn’t be surprising to me if his parents messed his mind up with “such-and-such is a girl thing, while such-and-such is a boy thing” stuff, dividing every toy/activity/clothing into boy & girl. Someone had to teach him that the ones he liked were girl toys, the ones he didn’t were boy toys, boys didn’t do such-and-such while girls did, et cetera. Otherwise how could you reject your own gender at age 2?
The penis thing sounds a bit forced to me as well. I don’t think he was coached, but I do think he’s been told a few too many times that “boys have a penis, but when you’re older, you can get it cut off and become a girl.”
I’m quite supportive of TGism but cannot imagine a 5 year old child making a big deal of gender identity one way or another unless his parents did too.
I think kids are often more aware of gender issues than folks are comfortable believing. My four year old nephew has been clarifying gender stuff for himself for nearly a year, concurrent with potty training. It’s a normal fascination, suddenly they have some control over this new function and everyone’s cheering them on and they’re learning about how some parts are private and that there’s new etiquette to understand, add that to all the different sensations found in the region and of course they’re fixated.
“So Aunt Tonya is a girl? Is Grandma a girl? Does Grandpa have a penis too? So Daddy is a boy? Boys have strong muscles, girls are better huggers.” He’s been very interested in figuring out that genitals are what make us male or female and trying to define gender characteristics for himself.
No, his parents don’t designate boy toys and female toys, he’s more interested in Thomas the Train but also plays with his Dora doll and refers to himself as the mommy or daddy of his stuffed toys interchangeably.
Kids who refer to their genitals as ‘wee-wees’ and ‘hoo-hahs’ were taught those words right Janx? Why not teach them the correct terminology for their body parts, we don’t generally call eyeballs ‘lookie-sees’ or come up with cutesy names for elbows, and a large number of parents don’t see any valid reason to invent terms for genitals either. The fact that the child in the article uses the correct names for body parts doesn’t indicate some huge agenda by the parents.
Janx, I don’t have a problem with the spirit of your post…well, yes I do it was nasty. Let me try that again: I think I know what you’re trying to say, which is that it seems that gender issues are very important to the parents, and the kid has picked that up.
But your “facts” are just plain wrong:
Wrong. In every thread about “When did you know you were gay?” the majority of gay Dopers report very, very young ages, down to two or three.
What the hell are you talking about? Of course I called “it” a penis or vagina. That’s what I was told its name was when I was taught my body parts. What the hell is a “pue-pue”?
Toddlers masturbate. Yep, yes they do! Boys and girls! Baby boy fetus are often born with erections! Uh-huh! Yes they are! Baby girls rub on their diapers to orgasm! Do so! Now go puke again.
Of course I did. “Mommy? Why does Daddy have a penis?” “Because he’s a man. Boys and men have penises and girls and women have vaginas.” It’s pretty basic information.
And I’m saying you’re clueless about children’s gender and sexual development - not to mention that you keep confusing the two, as if sex and gender are the same - they’re not.
Wrong again. Have you ever met a 5 year old? They’re all about what “boys do” and “girls do” and “boys games” and “girls games”. Hell, they’re MORE restrictive in their gender roles than adults. A 5 year old girl at school will routinely be told to “go away and play with the kitchen set” when she approaches boys playing with trucks. I have to spend most of my time with kids that age reassuring them that of course girls can play with trucks, and some of the world’s best chefs are men!
I wish you’d stop telling me what I knew, 'cause you’re scaring me a little. Of course I knew Mommies had boobs and Daddies didn’t! I did have functioning eyes! One of our favorite preschool games was to play dress-up as Mommies, and we’d steal her bras and stuff them with socks. We’d also play pregnant, and put pillows under our shirts.
I do agree that it might be useful to reinforce that gender roles are a lot more fluid than physical sex, and that Nicole might be a happy boy who likes dolls and kitchen sets, and that’s perfectly OK. I would hope that this has been done, but if it hasn’t, it should. But gender dysphoria or transexualism runs far deeper than a boy wanting to wear pink.
Perhaps. I didn’t get that from reading the article, but then since you know how everyone thinks and feels and knows, then you must be right. Oh, wait, YOU DON’T. You don’t even know how to teach a kid the proper names for her own body parts, how the hell could you know the motivations of strangers a world away from you?
I’m sure the first time this came up, the child’s parents were not thrilled.
Ah. Well, thank you for clearing that up. I’m sure that was it. :rolleyes: