5yo trans girl: "I want the fairy princess to come and make my penis into a vagina"

Except for the political and social issues raised by the situation itself, I am not at all sure that this ought to be treated very much differently from any other situation where a child’s neurological development does not proceed in the usual way. As the drive to diagnose picks up issues earlier and earlier, the question comes up more often: what do we do with the possibility that maturity or maturity with some extra attention will resolve the problem? And in what way does our definition of the problem, create a problem?

I do think that gender identification takes place sometime around three and that a child who consistently identifies with a gender other than the one actually expressed at the age of five is very far beyond unusual. That he apparently takes no steps to hide it suggests to me that he is at a minimum socially unusual as well. Irrespective of the parents’ attitude, by five a person with a penis certainly knows that behaving in certain ways is socially unacceptable – particularly a child with three older siblings, who has evidently been at school or in nursery for some time.

I do not mean to imply anything negative by this. But it seems to me also exceedingly rare for a child this age to not attempt to comply with social norms, whether they are supported by or actively combatted by the parents. Heck, people with synesthesia (for example) generally know by five not to bring it up and that is far less primal than gender identification it seems to me. I am allowing for some simplification in the article in saying this, though; I suspect the reality is rather more complex. It always is I think.

There is indeed a grey area in which a child can identify with all kinds of things, to a degree far beyond just playing at being something other than what the child is, for reasons which may or may not make sense to an adult. This is usually a coping technique used by a fairly bright child under extreme stress – pretending to be a thing which , if the child actually were that, would make whatever the situation is, “all right”. The article does not touch on this so I can’t really go any further with it.

But it is also my considered opinion that the human brain is remarkably plastic and for much longer than is generally admitted, and also that neurological development isn’t nearly as clear cut as we would like to think. It is further true that, well, psychology is sometimes more art than science and the choice of therapist can make a very significant difference in terms of what would be recommeded as the best way to handle something.

To the question: I think that forcing the child to behave in ways unnatural to him is wrong; but I think presenting to him a world that is other than it actually is is also wrong. I think it is a physiological matter, but I also think neurological development is not set in stone at the age of five – the overwhelming majority of children have a distinct hand preference by three or four, for example, but some do not yet and get one later and some few turn out to be entirely ambidextrous. But you cannot know for certain at five.

As a practical matter, I think the child at a minimum and possibly the family needs some ongoing therapy – whether the gender identity issue persists or not. I think I would enroll the child as a boy in school. Until he is a girl, he is a boy, it seems to me, and I am unaware of an “other” option. I can’t see any benefit to pretending that he hasn’t got the body of a boy. He has.

I think I would tell him that, in age appropriate ways, and I assume that his parents have done this. I think I would tell him that people expect a boy to act and dress as a boy and that I understand that now he feels that he is a girl but that these things can change. Sometimes they do and sometimes they do not, and we will deal with those things as a family as they come up.

I also think that in dealing with the school I would get a 504 plan set up from the get-go to address just the issues associated with GID, mostly bullying and social issues I expect.

I definitely knew who I was when I was five.

I was a little girl. My daddy was a boy, my sisters were girls, my best friend was a boy. If someone had come to me at five and said, “hey, how would you like to be a boy?” I’d have said, “yuck!” I knew that when I grew up I’d get boobs like my mom and wear dresses and have babies and kiss boys. It had nothing at all to do with sexuality. Even now, I have very little inclination either way in terms of sexuality (abnormally little, perhaps. I’m not even mildly interested in boys and I’m fifteen.) and I would absolutely hate to be a boy.
When I was five, I did have ideas about what I wanted to be that I wasn’t. I wanted to be Chinese, for example. I wanted black hair and Asian features and I wanted to speak Chinese and do Chinese dances and write in Chinese and everything, but it wasn’t a matter of feeling like I didn’t belong in the body with the blonde hair and the big eyes… it was just a matter of thinking something else was beautiful and wishing I could be that. I was persistent about it, too. I never shut up about how I was going to dye my hair black and move to China, I watched videos about China and begged my parents to get me Chinese music and take me to Chinese restaurants so that I could just LOOK at Chinese things.

The thing is, the parent has the control and can make the decisions and it’s very difficult for the child to communicate the difference between wishing he were a girl because he thinks girls are pretty cool and would like to be that and wishing he were a girl because he feels wrong as a boy. He may not grow out of it and grow up and get the surgery and take the hormones and be happy as could be, but he really could grow out of it.
I think it is admirable of the parents to accept the child whatever way he is. As far as school goes, it really is hard to know what to do. It sounds like the parents are trying their best, and I don’t think their kid should be taken away from them.
I also doubt Nicole sees herself as a “woman” as the article says. but I think that’s just funny phrasing. And I don’t think it’s a good idea to make her a poster child either.

Reading further in the article, I also have to say… just because a kid has something in common with you when you were that age doesn’t make you the same person. I remember swearing never to get fat when I was a little girl and I ended up a 67 pound anorexic. That doesn’t mean that every little girl who refuses a cupcake is dooming herself to a feeding tube. I think a lot of people may be projecting their own "wish I had"s onto this poor kid, which, should this turn out to be a phase, will only confuse him further. Which is precisely why I think making her a poster child is a bad idea.

What “proof” do you speak of? Are you talking about things like this. This is hardly proof. It’s a good hypothesis, but not what I would call proof, and certainly not as definitive as you make it seem. Wiki says the following:

There gave been many scientific studies done on the brain (the hypothalamus, specifically) giving a very good indication that transsexualism is a neuroendocrinological birth disorder. I don’t have them at hand myself, but I’m sure KellyM, Lee or Johanna can link to them. Using Wikipedia as a cite is about as accurate as using a message board or a buncha friends. Which, essentially, is what Wikipedia is.

To be fair to foolsguinea, I think what he meant was that five-year-olds have vivid imaginations, not that transsexualism doesn’t exist.

I’d love to see them, but I doubt that comeanywhere near what would be cosidered proof of “male brains in female bodies”.

Ah, the old, “Wikipedia is nonsense when I disagree with what it says” fallacy. What makes a website any more credible? Not all of the sites are run by professionals, and most have a clear bias. Not to mention that Wiki is almost as accurate as leading enclopedias.

Here are is another site:

1.

Actually, I have seen many, many factual errors on Wikipedia (I don’t know it well enough to call it “Wiki”). And if you want to start a “transsexuals are self-deluded, surgicallly mutilated lunatics” thread, I suggest you either start one, or go get a writing job for South Park.

Anyone know Lee or KellyM or Johanna? They are much better hooked-up to combat this kind of pig-headed ignorance with reliable medical studies.

That says more about the reliablity of encyclopedias than it does about the reliability of Wikipedia.

I would never call it wiki myself, since that refers to the system rather than Wikipedia as a website. We use wiki systems in the RPG I work on for staff projects and a group of the players use a wiki for compiling data on skills and such.

Now on to my real post, :wink:
I would tend to say that diagnosing a 5 year old as being TG might be a bit young. I know anecdotes are not evidence, but my own childhood is my basis for that.

I grew up as a decidedly non-traditional male. When playing I would invariably adopt the female role, if it was ‘house’ I was the mother, when we played rock band, I was the female lead singer, etc. I knew I was different from other males and if asked, I very well might have ID’d myself as female. I also knew I was attracted to boys but it wasn’t until I was a teen that I learned about being gay.

As noted in the article from the OP and from my own experience, a lot of the behavior of the child could indicate TG or it could indicate being gay. It could also be a phase that they will grow out of. Obviously, IANA pyschiatrist or a doctor and this not at all to say that the child is not TG but simply my view that a diagnosis is premature.

When I’m looking for more academic cites than Wikipedia, I usually first use Google Scholar, which “provides a simple way to broadly search for scholarly literature. From one place, you can search across many disciplines and sources: peer-reviewed papers, theses, books, abstracts and articles, from academic publishers, professional societies, preprint repositories, universities and other scholarly organizations.”

I’ve never researched this particular topic before, but from the first page of hits for gender dysphoria hypothalamus I found the following (my emphasis added in bold):

[Guidelines for Primary Care Trusts [PCTs] & Strategic Health Authorities [SHAs], (Annex A, Standards of Care in the Treatment of Gender Dysphoria &Transsexualism Annex B, Informed Consent Forms) (long quote, but from a much longer article):

[url=http://www.gires.org.uk/Text_Assets/maletofemale.pdf]Male to Female Transsexual Individuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in the Central Subdivision of the Bed Nucleus of the Stria Terminalis](http://members.aol.com/Gires3/Text_Assets/Guidelines.pdf):

Sorry, I forgot the hyperlink for the first cite:

Guidelines for Primary Care Trusts [PCTs] & Strategic Health Authorities [SHAs], (Annex A, Standards of Care in the Treatment of Gender Dysphoria &Transsexualism Annex B, Informed Consent Forms) (PDF)

I don’t have the links Eve is asking for, but they’ve been discussed on the SDMB before. Or just search the web for “BSTc” and “dimorphism”. The studies are very interesting, but they are not yet what I would consider scientifically convincing evidence. They convince me, but I am biased by personal experience and the experience of acquaintances I’ve known, and I do not expect an unbiased neutral observer to consider my anecdotal evidence standing alone sufficient proof. I think there is enough evidence, however, to cause a reasonable person to suspend judgment on the opposing hypothesis.

I wanted to make a point about the transsexualism articles on Wikipedia. They are a battleground. A multiway battleground, at that, with radical genderqueers on one side, radical feminists on another, conservative Christians on yet another, and probably any number of other fronts that I’m not even aware of. I avoid them entirely because of this. Editors have been banned as result of the fighting over those articles. I wouldn’t put a whole lot of stock in what they say.

And I say that as one of Wikipedia’s more prominent editors and champions.

This article references not only the Zhou study but also other works, specifically:5)“Male-to-Female Transsexuals Have Female Neuron Numbers in a Limbic Nucleus.”, Kruijver, Frank P.M. et al. Originally published in The Journal of Clinical Endocrinology and Metabolism, Vol 85, 2034-2041 (2000.

I have looked at various studies, and it they can be summarized as: when there is sexual dimorphism in the human brain in structure or measurable activity, transsexuals have characteristics of the sex that they feel themselves to be, not their chromosonal sex, in addition, one cannot induce adult brains to change to match the opposite sex by application of hormones.

Why scholarly papers fall off the web and light bulb jokes stay forever, I don’t know, but they do.

Did anyone here cite Wikipedia except you? No? Then for this thread, that’s a meaningless reply .

You know what- I’m never citing Wikipedia in this forum again. Maybe in CS or MPSIMS if I can’t avoid it, but not in here. When people doing actual research gets the “Wiki said” treatment - and there is real debate to be had on this subject, but there has also been some nonsense in this thread - something is wrong. For all I know, I’ve cited Wikipedia in here more often than anybody, so not anymore.

I’m sure there’s a Wikipedia link to prove that nobody cares about my grandstanding. :smiley:

You have got to be joking? Because I called someone on making what I believe is a specious claim, I am ignorant? You should deal with your own issues and insecurity, and stop projecting.

Perhaps. But it also shows that things considered definitive are often flawed, and that a blanket dismissal of a cite like Wikipedia base don a supposed lack of accuracy relative to other cites (ie. enclopedias) is unfair.

Good to know. Thanks for the tip.

THis doesn’t prove anything. It is compelling evidence, but not conclusive. To claim, as that post I objected to did, that this is settled science is misleading at best.

I linked to this study in my first post in this thread. Instead of reading it, people decided that I was ignoring the evidence. As I stated before, this study, while promising does not even begin to conclusively prove anything.

“And why is it not in woad as it should be, man?” :smiley:

If you think the kid’s brain is irrevocably female, I reserve the right to believe that some persons are irrevocably wired to be cannibals.

This makes no sense. She committed a fairly common fallacy, and was called on it. What’s your problem with that? Wikipedia is generally considered accurate and has been used to cite many things on these boards. Calling it’s accuracy into question w/o addressing the information within is faulty.

Did you not notice I linked to the respected study my detractors are trumpeting now? Don’t give me some shit about research, I was the first to present that study in this thread. Wiki was a supplementary cite to emphasize that studies involving a handful of people do not rise to the level of conclusive proof, and to state otherwise is dishonest.

No, I don’t think it shows any such thing. Wikipedia, like any encyclopedia, is mostly useful as a place to start research from. It’s by no means a definitive source, nor is it meant to be. It is, at best, a general overview of the subject. It should not be used to rebut a primary citation. That goes for encyclopedias as a whole, not just Wiki. In addition, the nature of Wikipedia itself makes it extremely unreliable when it comes to topics that are at all controversial, and transgenderism is one of the more controversial topics out there. The reliability of a wiki entry on that subject is dependent on what particular axe was being ground in the latest edit. On this particular subject, I would not rely on Wikipedia to be accurate, and I would not blame anyone for rejecting such a cite out of hand.

Well, at least DocCathode has some actual evidence to back up his theory, even if its not conclusive. What have you got on the cannibal front?

Yep.