Yeah, and so is Walter Cronkite. :rolleyes:
No I learned all of that when I got my English degree. I know all of that. I freely admit that he is using those stylistic elements. My point is that the average urban teen probably can’t be counted on to make subtle discriminations of artistic license while blasting this stuff out at top volume. While I am pleased that you have taken the time to do a style critique on this guys lyrics you still have not taken the time to address my point. Grunts without your education are taking this garbage at face value.
I never said I hated anybody. I said that Matt’s recordings are crap and I have no respect for anyone who lines his pockets.
I hold fast to my observation that his decision to publicize his violent fantasies has done real harm to the effort to push domestic abuse to the fringes of our society.
Here’s an article from a gay teenager who I think makes some interesting points. Personally I found his opening paragraph chilling:
Getting back to the OP…
Just saw the movie. I thought it was good; better than I expected actually. It’s the first time I’ve seen Eminem with any emotion in his eyes. The movie had a strong cast, particularily Kim Basinger. There was a bit much of the jiggly camera work though.
There’s some things in it that won’t make any sense unles you’re from around Detroit though. Here in Boston I think I was the only person who started laughing when it was mentioned that one of this supposedly very hard-core rapper went to Cranbrook (one of the snottiest and privatest of private schools in S/E Michigan). Also they make a lot of references to “the 313” and “the 810” without mentioning that the former is the area code of Detroit and the latter is the area code of suburbs.
The scene where he defended the gay coworkeer was great, as were all the freestyle rapping scenes.
There was a thread around here a little while where people were happily arguing away over Eminem’s pure evilness, why don’t some of you guys go look that up, or make a new thread, because this one is supposed to be about the freaking movie, ok?
And do you honestly not see the difference between expression and action? Furthermore, do you not honestly see the difference between reading/listening to said expression and action?
P.S. arisu, we are discussing the movie, albeit tangently. Does it make sense to condemn the people who want to see the movie or who actually see and like the movie because one of the artists in the movie sings about violent fantasies?
Let me make this clear-- I think Em is a jerk. But sometimes even jerks have interesting and arresting things to say.
It’s hard, because every time someone mentions eminem (or hip-hop) some dipshit gets on his high horse and starts blaming him for hatred and violence. Then someone like myself feels the need to challenge such ignorance. Eminem’s music is commentary on violence and hatred that exists, not the cause of it. Humans are violent creatures without any music, television, or video games. Folks got it backwards and I have trouble letting that slide.
Hip-hop is a symptom not a cause. It was born of poverty, oppression, and despair. Despite racist practices by banks to force segregation, despite the terrible effects of failed urban renewall programs, despite gross poverty and drug flooded neighborhoods, these kids found a way to make their voices heard. Hip-hop often portrays that part of our society that many would love to sweep under the rug or keep in the closet. The ugly parts. But whether these folks want to admit it or not these ugly parts exist. Turn the other way if you want, but these thoughts and ideas won’t be silenced by anybody. Put the dregs all in one place and then pretend the world is all sunshine and roses and don’t talk about all that bad stuff. Out of this hatred and injustice was born one of the coolest forms of music ever to grace the planet. It is a wonderful lesson in human resilience.
It’s in that tradition that eminem finds his power. He can say all the things that people are afraid to say and say it well. He shows us parts of ourselves that are ugly instead of pretending that everything is peachy keen. Life is hard. Life is raw. Dirty, nasty, evil and cruel thoughts and actions exist. I respect artists who don’t fear what others say and use this darkness to make something good and positive. You may want all the evilness in the world kept out of your music, but I know these things exist and it does my heart good to see someone turn these terrible facets of the world we live in into entertaining music which speaks to the worst in all of us. Not to encourage it, but to come to grips with it.
The message is there and in the end it is inciteful, entertaining and filled with talent. Too many kids get cause and effect mixed up. This music exists because we have problems. They are expressions of the emotions that one feels when life is hard. I, like many, many, other people can relate. It doesn’t make me a bad person, and it doesn’t make me worthy of disgust, but some holier than thou cat always shows up and turns his nose up. It’s funny the lengths to which people will go so they can feel superior.
Either way, it’s an impossibility to start a thread on this board about hip-hop without one of these ass-holes popping in and putting everybody down. Good luck though, I’m going to see the flick tonight and I’ll drop some commentary in the thread later. I have not seen one bad review. He’ll have the #1 flick and the number one album by next week. Haters be damned.
DaLovin’ Dj
I can’t say I’ve followed his career, but I remember reading something about Eminem pulling a gun on a man he saw kissing his wife. I’m certain his wife brought lawsuits against him more than once, although I don’t know if she ever accused him of domestic abuse per se or if she was just upset about the way he’s repeatedly expressed his desire to murder her.
**
I think when he refers to himself and other real people in his life by name it’s pretty clear that it is about him.
Yes, he was convicted of pistol whipping a guy that he caught kissing his wife. Like I said, the guy is a jerk with anger management problems.
I don’t think Degrance has actually listened to any Eminem. He does not condone violence. He doesn’t glorify ugly feelings. I don’t see how anyone listening to Cleaning Out My Closet could think he advocates matricide. The song cronicles his pain and shows, quite clearly, where all this anger is coming from. It’s not a pretty song. It’s not uplifting, but it’s raw and it’s real.
One night on a long drive, I had his first CD in the player and somewhere towards the end of the disc it hit me; Eminem is the musical equivalent of the Scream movies (or well, the first one at least – much less fond of the latter two). He’s a parody of the typical gangsta rapper while at the same time being a very effective (one of the most effective, really) example of it himself. It’s a very difficult listen, absolutely, because he’s tapping into raw, base and dark emotions that we all have, whether we like to admit it or not. It’s like an audio horror film. It’s crazy to think that somehow I’m suddenly inspired to think, “Wow, I should go murder someone because Em says it’s OK!” We all need to get in touch with our dark side sometimes.
And on his latest disc, he’s found a political voice; listen to “White America”, “Soldier” and “Square Dance” and tell me that’s not as powerful a group of protest songs as something Bob Dylan wrote.
Are you saying he’s the first postmodern rapper? :eek:
I just got back from seeing this movie. I have to say that I did not know much about Eminem, except a couple of his more unavoidable hits. I’ve never paid much attention to rap music or hip-hop. I’m an old school metal head and classic rock fan. I grew up on Black Sabbath and AC/DC and Led Zeppelin. I like music with guitars in it.
The only reason I went to this is because it was a part of my job. I work with Disabled people. On friday nights I have a client with mild CP and MR who likes to go to movies. (Hey, it beats flipping burgers) This guy is a huge Eminem fan who has been dying to see this movie for ages. So I took him tonight.
I expected nothing from this movie. I expected to see a badly acted, formulaic, “Cool As Ice” style crapfest with lots of lousy rap songs.
To my great surprise, I liked it quite a bit. It is flawed. many of the supporting characters are just hackneyed cliches, and it is somewhat formulaic and predictable, but Em himself is quite engaging. (I also liked Mekhi Pheifer’s performance in the film)
I don’t know much about Eminem’s alleged homophobia and/or misogyny, but there was none of that in this film. There is a scene where he defends a gay coworker by assulting the harasser in a witty series of rhymes which turn the language of homophobia back onto the homophobe (“He’s just gay, you’re the one that’s a faggot”) I don’t know what Em has said in the past about gays, but in the MOVIE this scene works very well and Em comes off as empathetic.
In fact Em mostly comes off as pretty soft spoken and mild throughout the movie. The scenes with his little sister are surprisingly touching and sincere.
His rage explodes through his raps, which are raw and visceral, but (at least in the movie) don’t seem hateful or violent.
The best scenes in the movie by far are those involving the brutal rap “battles” which Em participates in at a local club. These contests showcase some amazingly nimble-witted extemporaneous rhyming in a venue where wit and intelligent is valued more than guns and machismo.
I especially liked the final battle of the movie, which was handled in a very clever and satisfying way.
And I really liked the music. I cannot understate what an extraordinary statement this is for me. I HATE rap. I HATE hip-hop.
But this Eminem is just…different. There is something sort of mesmerizing about the way he uses words and rhythms. I spent several years trying to be a professional musician and songwriter. I know a lot about music, I know a lot about songwriting, and I know talent when I hear it. This kid is no dummy. There is some authentic genius in what he does with this genre. I don’t know exactly what he has said about women and gays in the past. It is my understanding that much of it was intended to be symbolic or hyperbolic.Maybe he really is a misogynist, homophobic thug. I don’t know. He doesn’t come across like that in the movie.
I remember, when I was in high school, I used to hear a lot of over-the-top stories about how “evil” Ozzy Osbourne was. Anyone who has ever watched the Osbournes can see that Ozzy is one of the most harmless, hapless people on the planet. Twenty years later I heard the same exact stuff about Marilyn Manson.
I think people need to relax a little bit. Eminem is not the anti-christ. To say that anyone who listens to him is not fit to be around children is just (I’m sorry) idiotic, hysterical nonsense.
I am now thinking of buying a CD. I’m intrigued by this kid. Am I unfit now to be a father to my daughter? GMAFB!
So what do you guys make of the “he’s gay, you’re the one who’s a faggot,” comment? This is probably way OT, sorry. I’ve been pushing it around in my mind–being a “faggot” is bad, and is clearly an insult, right? But he is sticking up for the gay guy, so it’s not 100% bad. And the guy he’s calling a faggot isn’t gay, so that kind of goes back to the whole insult thing. But the fact that he’s using an offensive slur to describe the guy kind of takes points off, right?
Ugh. This is confusing me. I feel like I’m trapped in a linguistic loop or something.
Em was using the word “faggot” after the other guy used it. he was throwing it back in the other guy’s face. It seemed like he was divorcing the language of homophobia from it’s literal meaning and changing it to a symbolic meaning, sort of challenging the masculinity of the homophobe. He’s using the word ironically. I think you kind of have to see the scene and hear everything in context. It didn’t come off as offensive.
Interesting, Diogenes. Thanks for your take. FWIW, I see where you’re going, but I’m not sure I buy it. It does sound funny to talk about Eminem like it’s an English class, though. 
I suppose I’m the “asshole” of this thread since I’m the first one who brought up Eminem’s homophobia (but I brought it up in the context of why I’m not going to see the movie so let’s hope Dj doesn’t think my assholism is total). So he “defends” a gay co-worker by calling someone a “faggot”? I suppose Eminem’s not entirely to blame for the incredibly fucked up mixed message that this sends; unless he improvised the line there was a screenwriter involved. But speaking as a faggot, if this is what Eminem thinks it is to “defend” gay people, I for one prefer to muddle through undefended.
So many have trouble divorcing intent and meaning from the histories of a word. He used the word faggot to mean a punk, a loser, a bitch. Tons of kids around this board would immediately accuse him of implying that gay people are punks, losers, or bitches. They would be incorrect. Intent. Meaning. Words are dead, inert and lifeless TOOLS. When em calls the homosexual guy gay and the straight guy a faggot these people short circuit. One of the coolest things about hip-hop is that they take old words and give them new meaning. The PC crew yells and screams that he can’t use those words without meaning everything they have ever taken it to mean, but again, they are wrong. He means what he means, and it is pretty obvious to everybody who has seen that part of the movie. No matter how much people stomp their feet he doesn’t mean what they WANT him to mean (so they can have a handy villain to blame the troubles of the world on).
The kid is so on point. He’s dealt with all of these arguments with skill and cleverness in his work before anyone has even questioned it. All the people who get upset by his work are dealt with later in the albums/movie if only you look and listen close enough.
So I saw the flick last night and loved it. The battles are great, Bassinger looks hot, the girl with the hand-licking move was hot, the acting was cool, the script was cool, basically daddy likes. I especially like the way he dealt with people’s problems with him in a subtle way. Like the gay co-worker thing. Also, when he was beating up the guy in the recording studio and he turns to the girl. It was a really tense moment in the packed theater I was in. Everyone thought that em was gonna hit her and there was a nice dramatic pause in there where you saw the desire cross his face. Instead Jimmy just walked away. The moral IS walk away. He could have easily gone the other way and smacked the slut. He feels these things but tries to fight them. That is what his music is about, not endorsement, but acknowledgement and a way to channel those negative emotions into something positive.
Killer flick.
DaLovin’ Dj
Happiness… is a warm gun.
Hey Joe, where you going with that gun of yours?
Dude, so many baby boomer sixties rock fans should not be associating with your wife and child (who obviously aren’t responsible enough to decide themselves who they should be associating with. Do you always tell your wife who she’s allowed to talk to?)
I can see the sense of the “he’s gay, you’re a faggot” scene. I suppose you could use the same line on a racist, “he’s black, you’re a nigger,” i.e, “you’re everything you think about this guy.”
I feel that that would hurt a homophobe. Eminem is essentially saying to the guy “this guy sleeps with other men. But all the negative stereotypes you associate with him apply to you.”
It’s ironically using the homophobe’s own linguistic prejudices against him.
By like token, he deserves no credit for any positive message it might send about the way to treat homosexuals. I very much doubt Eminem insisted upon inserting a gay-defending scene into the movie because of his deep-rooted desire to show his fanbase that it is wrong to insult people because of their sexual orientation. I think the scene is there only to deflect criticism of the film’s star.
So when he rapped about stabbing faggots an lezes in the head, he really meant stab heterosexuals who insult gay people? All righty then.
“Faggot,” “punk” and “bitch” are all words which, especially in the African-American community, have the meaning “homosexual male.” Now, Eminem may be at the forefront of a movement to divorce these words from their “homosexual” meaning and have them mean…what, effeminate (but that of course has that whole “homosexual” connotation) but if that’s so he’s doing a piss-poor job of it. If Eminem isn’t aware of how his “tools” can be and are being interpreted then he’s a lousy craftsman.
Eminem did an interview with Rolling Stone in which he said he would never use the word “nigger” because of the enormously offensive meaning. That same interview makes it abundantly clear that either he doesn’t understand the offense and anger his use of “faggot” causes or he doesn’t care. Whih makes him an idiot, a bigot or both. Regardless, he hasn’t earned my respect or my money. Like he cares, but hey, that’s one fewer CD and movie ticket he’s going to sell. If not wanting to support bigotry and taking to task apologists for bigotry makes me “PC” then so be it.
“8 Mile” only opened here 2 weeks ago. I thought it was brilliant! I was never a HUGE fan of Eminem, but I do love “Without Me” (catchy & kinda mainstream). “Lose Yourself” & “Sing It (?)” are great too. I found the movie quite fascinating actually. Being from Australia, we really have no idea of the intensity of race-relations between the blacks & whites in “ghetto” environments in the US. Very interesting. I felt kinda sorry for Em’s character when he was haggled by the crowd at the “battles”. Sometimes he looked like he was about to burst into tears. I love Eminem now. I think he’s quite mesmerising and has an incredibly intense gaze that just melts you. The only things I didn’t like about the movie were Brittany Murphy’s character (skank). I can’t believe Jimmy even gave her the time of day after she screwed that other guy. I also didn’t like how his relationship with Jeneane (sp?) was left unresolved. I would’ve liked to have seen them reconcile. I’m a romantic at heart. Basically, it was a winner for me! 8/10. Good stuff! Hope Marshall makes some more movies, & soon!