This is a documentary centered on the LDS church’s involvement in funding the Prop 8 campaign in California’s 2008 election.
I have to say that I ended the movie feeling the purest sense of contempt and disgust for the Mormon church, which I’m pretty sure was the filmmaker’s objective. I was ready to throw this thread in the pit because only there can I really accurately vocalize how I feel about the church, Stuart Matis’ parents and Senator Buttars right now.
But truthfully, I’m more interested in being talked down from my revulsion of the LDS church by those in the know who would be willing to point out some inaccuracies and/or exaggerations made in this film so that I might sleep better tonight and not be unnecessarily rude to the next individual I see with a “choose the right” ring.
Has anyone else seen this film? What are your thoughts? Please tell me any truth in this film is representative of the fringiest fringe of religious zealots and not your every day mainstream believer.
Well, this thread is probably better suited to GD than Cafe Society, even though it’s about a movie.
As for talking you down, it is important to remember that religious believers are not a monolith, even in an authoritarian top-down church like Mormonism. Mormonism’s stance on gay marriage IS repulsive, as is their complete dishonesty about the issue.
However, there are plenty of believing Mormons, including some on this board, who are in favor of gay marriage regardless of the official stance of the church. It’s not fair to tar those people with the same brush, in my opinion.
State Senator Buttars, on the other hand, is one of the most disgusting people on the planet. I’ve read some pretty damning newspaper articles that expose the rampant abuse in his Boys Town compounds. I’d say you can’t blame Mormons for this vile human being, but apparently 20,000 of them vote for him every four years.
I haven’t seen the documentary and you couldn’t find a grain of sand’s weight in respect for the Mormon church anywhere in my being other than as historical interest and their contributions to American absurdism, but in fairness they didn’t send in legions of Danites to force people at gunpoint to vote their way. The California voters did that themselves.
Well, according to this filmmaker, that’s essentially exactly what they did. They bussed in protesters, shook down their church members for additional funds to finance the campaign in California AND used the same playbook they apparently used to pass a similar legislation piece in Hawaii.
They even paid for commercials which were completely inaccurate and disgusting. A “mother” from Massachusetts crying about how her children were being taught values in school that trampled all over her freedom of religion (??), social workers crying about how, if the prop didn’t pass, religious adoption agencies would be forced (FORCED) to hand over babies to gay atheists. They even funded a commercial with a small girl who tells her mom that she just read “A King and a King” (iirc) and now she’s gonna find her own princess to marry. :rolleyes:
The church posited that gay marriage is a threat to religious freedom and free speech. I don’t even know how that makes sense, but there it is.
They basically used lies spread with their money and influence to fix an election. Even with more money than any other proposition (I believe in history, correct me if I’m wrong), they won by a fairly narrow margin. It really does seem like the church literally forced the vote by whatever shenanigans necessary.
Wait, what did Stuart Mathis’ parents do? The link makes it look like they were pretty accepting of their son.
As for the LDS church, my revulsion for them is matched only by my revulsion for the Catholic hierarchy. Joseph Smith was a conman and horndog and it amazes me that not only does the LDS church not lose members daily but people are still converting.
Not one of whom I have ever seen organize opposition to the Church’s position. For al the reasons given in the movie. Have you seen it? I have.
And where I live, yesterday there was a shooting in a Mormon Church. Public opinion as expressed on comment threads immediately started blaming the gays for the shooting. Too bad it turned out to be one of their own. Will anyone apologize? Doubt it, because where I live is the capital of Red California, heavily Mormon, and being nice is just not how they roll.
He struck me as pretty much par for the course among local politicians, including the Mormons.
What’s amazing to me is that Glenn Beck converted to a church and at least says he’s a devout believer in a church that teaches or has taught that black skin and slavery were God’s punishment, that men can be gods with their own planets, that polygyny was sacred until God changed His mind (coincidentally around the same time LDS leaders were being arrested for it left right and center), that contrary to every single reliable study ever undertaken in DNA and linguistics the American Indians were Israelis and had big cities and chariots and horses (the kind that disintegrate and don’t leave any remains), that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri, that it’s alright to lie to non-believers, and all kinds of other silly stupid shit, yet when he questions Obama’s theology he gets an ovation.
I’m trying to understand that one but it’s just not coming.
Fair point. Mods, if you would prefer to move this thread, I’ll understand.
I dunno about that. I get what you’re saying, but I just don’t know if I can accept it as truth. Lord knows I’ve spent a good chunk of my life defending my family’s Christian beliefs (which I do not share), but I don’t think I can whitewash over this level of putrescence, any more than I could convince you that the KKK have some nice guys in their group who get a bad rap just for their love of white robes and funny hats.
At some point it seems like you owe it to yourself and to humanity at large to distance yourself from an institution so enmeshed in hate and intolerance. I could accept it if the hate were radiating from fringe LDS groups, but it looks to me like this is the official message.
Yeah, he’s pretty disgusting. As I was watching this film, I literally had to remind myself that he’s older than God’s first report card and probably won’t live too much longer just to keep myself from wanting to drive to Utah to junkpunch him.
A racist homophobe with a government megaphone. Aaaagh, the horrors.
Well, the filmmaker invited them to appear in the documentary. They agreed until they realized it was about prop 8. Once that came to light, their statement was essentially, “We have no stance other than the church’s stance on this issue.”
Even after the church’s intolerance for gays literally stole their sons entire life, their stance is still whatever the church’s stance is. It’s not that I feel Mr. and Mrs. Matis are evil pigs who never loved their son, only that their desire to be obedient to and remain a part of their church was more important to them than embracing their son and assuring him that they were on his side in this fight. In fairness, I have read that his mother wrote a letter to the church pleading with them to rethink their stance on gay issues, but I still can’t quite grok how she could be a part of such an organization at all. My heart hurts to think of this kid, full of self-hate and literally fruitlessly wishing on birthday candles to not be gay. His death was just the culmination of nearly three decades of suffering because he couldn’t reconcile his family’s religion with his homosexuality.
Keep an eye on the news out of Visalia California for a while if you want to see more of this. A Bishop was shot in a church, then the police shot the suspect. Intial local scuttlebutt was it had to be an angry gay, this being ground zero for prop 8 homophobia in California.
Turns out it was a disgruntled Mormon. Probably not gay, or at least out, as he was married, but he had some unspecified beef with the Church for decades.
So one of them shot their own, in an apparently public way, first shooting the guy in the foot in his office, then dragging him out to where the congregation was gathering and shooting him in the face.
Then he apparently committed suicide by cop, calling the cops and telling them where he was and raising his gun on their arrival.
so the spin will be interesting. Sorry for everyone’s loss, but still, let’s see how they rationalize this…
A good friend of mine since grade school married into a Mormon family. His father-in-law was pretty set against Proposition 8, and a couple members of his congregation approached him and hinted that if he didn’t change his mind about it, he might lose his “temple recommend” (IIR the phrase correctly). Somewhat akin to an excommunication, except not as severe - I think it only lasts a year, or something. A scummy little bit of intimidation, none the less. As I understand it, he told them to go fuck themselves, and they backed down. So, not just bigoted thugs, but cowards, too.
Mormons are about 1.7% of California residents. Prop 8 passed with 52% of the vote. If every mormon had stayed home it still would have passed. Your hatred is probably misplaced.
