The owner of the Stone Pony did say that that was the thing which weighed heaviest on him, that he didn’t tell anyone else about the band’s unauthorized pyro usage.
I did get a little pissed when MSNBC called Great White a “fading hard rock band.” Yeah it’s true, but it’s kinda rude, don’tcha think?
My brother was arrested at a Heart concert in the mid-80’s for flicking his bic. He was quite indignant at the time but get a little perspective and you want to thump them on their backs in gratitude. They were just trying to prevent people from dying from their own stupidity. Inside+lots of people+fire=tragedy
Before today, I’d never heard of Great White. They’re being described as an 80s band: were they actually big then?
I’m wondering about this business of paniced people heading for the entrance by which they entered – suppose all the exits were really clearly marked with big, bright EXIT signs, signs designed to be visible in all possible conditions – wouldn’t this result in people heading for the nearest exit? Why isn’t this required?
Sorry if this is a hijack, but when it comes to stupidity, I think the Chicago club mess was more stupid. Two women get into a fight, and the security guys use pepper spray or mace? Why couldn’t they just grab the women, pull them apart and hold on to them until they calmed down? Surely the security guys were way bigger and stonger then the women? Why did they even HAVE mace or pepper spray? Couldn’t anyone figure out that using such things in a crowded club might set off a panic?
And if the club had been ordered by the authorities to shut down, why didn’t they see to it that it actually did shut down? How hard is it to notice that a club is open? It reminds me of the Happy Land fire in NY. (I think that was the name of the place.) Several hundred dead, in a fire in a club described as “illegal”. (Fire set by nutcase who wanted to kill his girlfriend, who worked there. She survived.) Well, again, how hard is it to notice a big, loud, club? If it was illegal, why was it allowed to stay open? Because it was in a poor neighborhood? Because the people who came to it were minorities?
They said that the exit signs were not visible through the black smoke.
Is it really? I haven’t been there in years. Last time I went they had batting cages, an archery range(well, not really. They had two tiny bows a handful of broken arrows and a couple paper targets tacked to old cardboard boxes), pool tables, etc. I didn’t see much of the place that would have been suitable for a concert venue so I figured they’d done some remodeling. Guess they kept the lanes eh? I have seen some good bands booked there, but I’ve never gone there for a concert.
Enjoy,
Steven
PS, you coming tomorrow? I dropped you a line about the birthday party for Grace thread, but I figured you were leaving town this weekend when I didn’t see you pop in there. Pipe up in the thread if you need directions. I’m playing Mr. Mom tomorrow morning and early afternoon so I’ll check the boards in the morning and I can send you directions if you want to come.
Which is another reason performance halls have the strips of runway lights along exit routes and/or alternate/emergency lights. Too bad this club didn’t have such things 
Steven
Maybe this will answer some questions you have ~
http://www.nationalreview.com/dreher/dreher022003.asp
Just out of curiosity, i went online to go look up Rhode Island’s building codes.
Something tells me that they are being scoured over by many - I can’t log on to it because the server is too busy.
While all the finger pointing goes on, I guarantee you that the club owners will get a huge fine. From the way things are described, and having experience in architecture, that building does not sound like it was up to code.
I have to put in a disclaimer though: I have not seen RI’s codes.
The other thing that gets to me about the pyrotechnical display is that the smoke coming off of it would have been dangeous enough. In a room without ventillation it seems like a really bad idea, not even counting the fire possibilities.
Most of my experience is with theatrical shows and our prep time is often quite a bit longer than what it appears is the typical prep time for a road show of this variety. When I was in charge of a performance space I knew every prop, every set piece and how each would be used. Maybe it’s because I’ve seen groups TRY to break the rules of the theatre, but I just don’t let it in the door unless I, or someone I trust, has looked it over and knows what it’s about. It would be hard to spot a small firepot, especially if you’re on a tight schedule. Still the club does have a responsibility to both their customers and themselves to ensure the actions of the band don’t put their lives and liveleyhoods at risk. It may be standard operating procedure to just get out of the band’s way when they and their crew come in to set up, but by stepping back the owner/staff of the club has accepted responsibility for anything the band does, even those things they didn’t expect the band to do.
It’s kind of like an implied warranty. Everyone on the planet tries to disclaim them and say they aren’t bound by them, but ultimately a dangerous situation created by their action, or inaction, IS their fault. One can say it’s not humanly possible to prevent all dangers, or that they were just doing what everyone else does, but that won’t bring those people back to life Someone is responsible. I believe it is the club. The customers who came there did so under the reasonable assumption that the place wouldn’t burn down around their ears and kill them. The club failed to hold their part of the bargain. There is certainly fault to be found with the band and their crew, but the club management had the power, and the duty IMHO, to prevent these types of incidents. It could be argued that they discharged this duty by binding the group to a contract which expressly prohibited pyrotechnics, but I’d say that isn’t enough due dilligence. When the results of breaking a contract can cost ~100 lives I expect more effort on the part of the club owner/staff to ensure safety guidelines ARE FOLLOWED, not just paid lip service.**
Here’s hoping everyone is ok! Best wishes.
Steven
I read that the club wasn’t required to have sprinklers because it was over 40 years old. That makes little sense to me. I would think that older buildings would be more susceptible to fires and therefore have stricter standards, not lower ones.
Then again, how helpful would sprinklers have been in this tinderbox. Three minutes is awfully damn fast for a place to be consumed in flames.
What a sad and preventable tragedy.
The evening news (sorry, no cite available) mentioned that the device used for the pyrotechnics could have been as small as a pack of cigarettes. The expert they had on said that if it were placed in a part of the stage which is crowded anyway, say, near the drum kit, it would be easy to overlook. From what I remember of the footage, the pyrotechnics weren’t near the drum kit, more off to the side of the stage. Still, I suppose they could be easy to miss if you weren’t looking especially hard.
Human stupidity strikes again!
CJ
Waverly you just rock, in a non-80’s big hair, leopard print spandex pants kind of way!
*combustion triangle * :::::snort::::::
In a sober note, I bet this unfortunate incident will completely revise safety regulations.
Yes, but realistically it is impossible to put in sprinkler systems in some older buildings because the ductwork required simply doesn’t exist.
In this case, it seems there were laws and regulations in place; the band ignored the fire code with tragic results.
I saw footage of a similar device to what was used, it would fit in your pocket.
BTW, here is the performance rider for the band
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/doc_o_day/doc_o_day.shtml
no mention of pyro…They are so screwed.
You’d be amazed how fast some of these older buildings will burn. Where I used to live, there was a little wooden corner store that had been there for probably at least 30 years (this was in the mid-80s). One day someone was pressure-washing the outside when he accidentally hit the meter box. It sparked and the whole building was a burned-out shell within thirty minutes. I still don’t know how come the exterior didn’t collapse as well. The owner’s rebuilt in brick and I think they have sprinklers now (I haven’t been there in years). It doesn’t take much to make an older building burn.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Mtgman *
I guess that means you’ve never been to where they hold the concerts, huh? It’s a semi-detached building at the rear with (I’m guessing) 1500 seats in a depressed amphitheater arrangement and a ridiculously ornate stage at the bottom. Really a great place for a show. I saw Springsteen there on his solo acoustic tour seven or eight years ago, and he joked about having done a lot of things in his career, but playing a bowling alley was a first.
Sadly, no. The trip got washed out again (next chance: two weeks from now), but I would have had to cancel it myself even if it had gone. Stupid clients . . .
Hmm, must have had that part closed off when I was there. I went there as part of a school function ~12 years ago and I was there around five hours. I did a fair bit of exploring and didn’t see anything that resembles what you describe. I’ll keep it in mind if I hear another name booked there I’d be interested in.(although I’ll probably be sure to book a seat near an exit if possible)
Sorry you can’t make it today, the get-together starts at 3 and will run until we all fall down. I’d expect people to still be there until the evening at least. Last time we got together for a house-party style dopefest it was ~ 2 AM when most people left.
Enjoy,
Steven
Mtgman you were pretty thorough – very, very, very few indoor performance venues are legally able to accept any kind of open flame. Not a candle on stage. I worked on a show that required real cigarettes to be smoked and lit onstage – thousands then had to be invested on a special fire retardant spray for the entire set, all the furniture all the costumes and so on.
Pyrotechnics also breakdown into different classes requiring different licences, permits, and certification. For live shows that are F/X laden, such as Phantom of the Opera, tens of thousands and sometimes millions go into safety and preparation.
In my juristiction, for guns and pyro (onstage and in movie shoots), a police officer and/or fire official must be on-set. This officer will inspect the charges after they are set and also has to be watching each step of the process as the pyro-technician or gun-wrangler are loading the devices and preparing the detonation.
I was certified for outdoor, high level display fireworks, I never got the indoor pyro certification because there are four things I learned that scared the crap out of me:
e.g. A guy who was re-certifying when I got my card, has a crater in the back of his head. The instructor asked him to “show the class” the back of his bald, scarred head. During a July 4 display, a charged detonated not 300 feet in the air, but prematurely around the 6 feet from the ground – it blew a secondary charge into the back of his skull (which is why we wear firefighter helmets if we’re near the mortars – the helmet saved his life).
e.g. Indoor effect, should go “puff!” instead goes “POW!” and showers the area with little, burning bits of paper – little bit of burning paper lands on my friend’s back and sets his hair on fire. All from a simple, small flashpot effect. (Loss of hair, no injury.)
Gun-wrangler test fires a gun loaded with blanks that is “hot off the top” (which means that the muzzle is filled in, and the heat, the gunpowder flash, and any concussive force of the blank exit though top of the gun where the spent casing pops out.) Fires the gun and a spray of tiny, burning bits of paper flies into her face – the disintegrated blank wadding that felt like “burning sand”. No injury, but scary as hell (all hail safety glasses!).
e.g. During a safety test of an outdoor effect, the pyro crew cleared the area, no one was supposed to be near the mortars or drop zone except the a pair firing the effect. Director comes over asks “what’s going on?” then says “really? Cool!” and proceeds to march straight to the mortar and stick his face over it to look inside! Pyro technician almost got his hand blown off saving his stupid life.
e.g. Canada Day fireworks display. Afterwards, the army of clean-up crew has to thoroughly search the drop zone (empty field or body of water) for any unspent charges. Fifteen-year-old volunteer finds one. Decides to keep it for himself rather than turn it in. Hides it in the garage and forgets about it. Two years later rediscovers it. Breaks it apart and dumps it in a mason jar. Then he drops in a match to see what will happen. Mason jar explodes, glass tears his face apart and blinds him for life. Family sues the head fireworks technician.
In this thread, I wrote:
I’ve seen roadies who were not qualified try to set-up charges without asking. The sum total of their training was that they got ahold of a bunch of flashpots and “figured it out” in someone’s backyard one day while they were playing with leftover fireworks.
Small pyro, big pyro – they are explosives. Highly volatile and somewhat unpredictable, and always dangerous!
Take note: Real, certified and well-trained pyro technicians will do it right and by that I mean – they are scared enough to respect the explosives:
As for sneaking stuff into the venue: Some indoor F/X are really small. For comparisson, try thinking some of the outdoor big stuff you see on the 4th of July, starts out only the size of a grapefruit. (The mortars are large.) If you’ve never seen it before, you just won’t know. Honestly, even though I work with musicians now, half of their gear is also unrecognizable to me. I might spot a pyro effect, but only if I was looking for it.
This fire makes me sick to my stomach. It is my worst nightmare come true.
I never renewed my fireworks card because it was just too scary. This is why.
Sprinklers and sprinkler control systems are very expensive. And retrofitting them to buildings which were not designed to have them as-constructed can be amazingly expensive. I’ve seen a job where the cost to install sprinklers in a 6-story office building cost $1-1.5 million.
The building had a market value of about $10 million. So we’re talking about 10-15% of the building value.
Being forced to install sprinklers, the owner would have instead evicted all tenants and had the building sold.
One can then come back with the old saw of “but how much is a human life/100 human lives worth?”, but this isn’t really valid. If one assumes that one must spare no expense whatsoever in making things safe, then cars would cost $100,000 and buildings probably wouldn’t exist in a recognizeable form.
I mean…everything has a cost-benefit. Regardless what parents think, their child’s life does not have infinite value, nor does anyone’s.
An alternative that some would suggest is “why not, then, just putting sprinklers in high-risk areas?” I agree, that doesn’t have to be cost-prohibitive at all, and could be very helpful. The reason, in practice, why this is often not done is a matter that gets us into the subject of tort reform. Or, as one of our own lawyers told us (I’m paraphrasing) when we suggested putting fire suppression systems on one part of a control room: “But if you put them there, you have to put them EVERYWHERE, or else if there is EVER a fire, we can be sued for only implementing fire suppresion in one area. A jury would have this characterized as ‘negligence’, and it would be all over for us. So you have to put the systems everywhere, or not take the job.”
As a result, no fire protection was put in at the plant. Because completely outfitting all control rooms everywhere was too much money for the client. Thanks to the risk of being sued from making a half-way attempt, everyone loses.