Well, I saw the film. The pyrotechnics didn’t look all that big. Anybody consider the club was a firetrap and an errantly flipped cigarette or something could have led to the same result? The fact that the fireman on the scene said the whole place burned up in THREE MINUTES would seem to confirm this. Not that I know, just something to consider.
Plus, the people in the band have nothing to do with how the pyros are set up and getting permission to use them. Maybe the manager was an asshat, maybe the club personnel were. Nobody’s gonna just raise their hand and say “my bad” on this, so I guess the bottom feeders will sort it all out.
My heart truly goes out to the victims. I’m having a hard time wrapping my mind around the scope of this tragedy…
I don’t have much to say that the OP didn’t already cover. So much senseless stupidity.
Sorry to add this OT nitpick but Great White’s version of “Once Bitten” wasn’t even the original. They just covered a song that was first written and performed by Ian Hunter.
As a general rule, when people are on fire and choking to death on smoke they don’t excercise much sense. Usually what’s exercized is a Full Bore Linear Panic (that’s where you run in a straight line in a random direction until you bounce off an obstacle, run off in a different random direction until you bouce off something else, and repeat until you either escape danger or danger kills you)
You might as well jab at the folks who jumped from the 100th floor of the WTC. Death by fire… death by gravity… so many choices.
It’s called PANIC. Very few people are capable of operating well when in a panic. Especially in a crowd/mob scene. In the dark only makes it worse. Fire makes it worse.
Imagine it - the place is on fire, the place is full of smoke, you’re choking on fumes, you’re surronded by rushing, heaving, screaming bodies… you have one chance to get to a door or window and get out… now which direction was the exit?. If you run you might guess right and live. If you slow down and think by the time you act the exits might be blocked. Or maybe you’ll see the main door is blocked and be way from the main mob, able to make it to an alternative exit. You don’t know. You have to act without complete information. Your choice is a matter of life-or-death.
Me, I’d prefer to avoid such a situation… but they do happen.
Too many people in a small space - and “too many” is often a surprisingly small number - plus fire is a recipe for disaster.
As for the rest… the folks involved will point fingers, try to blame it on a fallguy(s), and probably everyone involved will get some blame by the time the dust settles. Jail time? A possibility. A bit soon to tell, though.
I sense you don’t like Great White. Your hostility towards them is subtle, but I think I’m picking up on the correct undertones.
I’m no expert on pyrotechnics (yet), but I have participated in a fireworks display last year. I learned three things from that:
a) I am a complete pyromaniac.
b) I will be doing that again.
c) Fireworks can kill you in many interesting ways.
Seems like le band thought Lesson C was just another “Hi Opal!”
And lo, no one ever went to a Great White concert again.
I worked as a technician/stage hand/lighting designer/stage manager/you name it for various professional theatres around the Dallas area for about seven years. One of the things which was ABSOLUTELY FORBIDDEN was fire on stage. Even at venues which HAD adequate fire prevention(a fire curtain, vent above the stage, and fire extinguishers). Sometimes the performing group would be pissed when the venue management team said they couldn’t use real fire, but usually they came around and bought little flashlights with bulbs that simulate flames.
If a venue provider let them bring pyrotechnics on stage it is their fault. The band was stupid(especially if they did it deviously), but the stage and the venue is still responsible. I damn sure wouldn’t have let them on any stage I was responsible for without having myself, or some of my staff, check what they’re bringing in. If they had pulled this kind of crap(sneaking in pyrotechnics where they shouldn’t have) and the stage manager knew about it then that’s even worse.
There are all kinds of rules and regulations that go into building a performance venue. Special code sections in the electrical and building codes as well as rules on fire prevention/management. Almost ALL of them are geared for maximum audience protection. Lots of exit doors(look around the next time you’re in an actual theatre or performance hall, you’ll clearly see lots of exits, and odds are you could get to at least one of them quickly) and alternate routes to exits, for example. Runway lights along emergency exit lanes and those accursed(at least we used to curse them when they would throw red light on some part of our set when we wanted it to be dark) red exit signs. If something happens like this in a properly built and maintained performance hall then the band may be toast(a common precaution is a heavy, fireproof, drape which, when a fire is detected, falls between the fire on stage and the audience. This protects the audience from any fires that might start on stage, but severely limits the ability of the performers to escape), but the audience will have a much better chance.
There is a place in Dallas that is often used for these types of concerts. It was once a bowling alley. I shudder to think what would happen if a fire started during a concert there.
Thanks, Mtgman, for your Straight Dope on how that stuff usually works. In my experience playing in bands in clubs, the club personnel/lighting/sound guys (do they ALL wear chain wallets?) are plenty eager to tell the band what they CAN’T do, pronto. I don’t see any way they could have “slipped it past them”. Plus I don’t think the Stone Pony people are being honest, either. It’s not something you can pull off without the cooperation of the club, as far as I can see.
From what the pyrotechnic expert said, it does sound possible that they could have slipped the pyrotechnic devices in. At least he seemed to think that it would have been no problem to do so.
But if they did that at the Stone Pony, I have to wonder why the Stone Pony people didn’t call other venues to warn them or something.
I know you’re probably right, and I’m sorry if I came off as insensitive. I’m just really upset by this whole situation. Fire is one of my big fears–I can’t imagine the terror these poor folk must have experienced. It’s only that when I read that once the firemen showed up and opened up the emergency exits they were able to save an extra 100 people, I can’t help but wonder how many more might have made it if they’d been opened from the start. The staff and crew at least knew where those exits were–I hope so anyway–and I’m sure once they were opened people would have used them even if they had been unaware of them up 'til that point. Either way, too many people lost loved ones last night in a horrible, painful, senseless way. It sucks all around.
It’s possible they slipped it past them, in which case the negligence of the club personnel is even more abhorrent. Several factors combined to create this tragedy. A band with more interest in dramatic flair than safety, a venue which was not designed for such shows, and venue management who did not enforce the rules which would have kept the show safe.
One of my points was that if the stage manager of the club knew about the band sneaking in pyrotechnics at the Stone Pony then this is would be almost criminal negligence to not thoroughly search ALL of the band’s equipment for such devices, no matter how small. If they didn’t know about the band flaunting the rules at the Stone Pony then it was just plain tragic negligence.
I’ve worked in venues that were converted warehouses and we were damn well aware of the limitations and dangers that being in a performance space not designed for shows placed on us. We always tested our safety equipment and kept our emergency lighting on routes to the exits. If you don’t have the advantage of the design of the building working towards the safety of your audience then it is incumbent upon the venue management to be MORE stringent with their safety measures. I like to see art and music thrive, but not when it means packing people into potential deathtraps run by clueless wonders.
Hey, it still IS a bowling alley! The Bronco Bowl is also the best place in Dallas to see a band, as far as I’m concerned. But you’re right, if a fire ever started there, you would have a whole lot of dead people there real quick.
BTW, the only guy who’s still in the band from their minor glory days in the late 80s is the lead singer. Everyone else had sense enough to quit a few years ago, I believe.
Oh, and the person who REALLY deserves to fry is whoever placed those pyrothechnics right next to the foam soundproofing on the back wall. Goddamn, why don’t you just set it next to a pile of oily rags?
bella no need to appologize to me, I’ve seen how fast even a simple smouldering fire can create large amounts of black smoke. There was a fire at the correction center I worked at once, located in a room right next to their main exit, I opened the fire escape, made a big damn production about it, and bless their hearts every single one of them went to the main exit, in some cases, walking past the open fire escape, and right past the blaze itself.
the whole hallway was impassible 'cause of the smoke in short order - and this was a much smaller deal than what that club would have had. But the stuff the walls/ceiling were made from would have done that horrible dark, overpowering smoke very quickly.
Regardless of permissions, permits, and regulations, somebody chose to put those pyrotechnic devices next to a foam wall. And several somebodies, who definitely knew that a pyrotechnic display was planned didn’t put a stop to it.
To respond to the people who say it’s the club’s fault, I must disagree. I toured for over two years and no one ever has the time to check every little box to see if it contains pyro. And why would they? There was no mention on pyro in the rider (http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Northeast/02/21/nightclub.pyro/index.html), and the “manager” who did all the preplanning for the gig must have received a building info packet, which should have stated that pyro was not allowed. I’ve toured with shows that used pyro, and WE (the tour) had the responsibility to contact the local fire marshal and schedule a time for them to come in and check our stuff. Whoever (whomever?) was in charge of setting up and shooting the charge is at fault. Why didn’t he test it before the show? Because it was hidden from the club. The stupidity astounds me. AAAAAAARRRRRRRRGH!
Sorry for bad grammer/spelling. I have friends in the area I can’t contact, little worked up right now. I must close with this (pardon the language)
The number is up to 95 now.