9/11 was done by some maniacs, it had nothing to do with islam per se.

[Tamerlane]

@Lakai

Where in the Koran does it say that you have to attack people who station troops outside Saudi Arabia?

Nowhere specifically, of course. If you want ObL’s justification, you can peruse the lengthy Ladenese Epistle. In it you’ll see a very thorough intertwining of political arguments with appeals to religious authority, particularly the rather regressive medieval theologian Ibn Taymiyyah, godfather of the modern Wahhabi and Deobandi movements, plus many references to hadith. Qur’anic passages are used more sparingly, in passing and arguably out of context.

This mostly proves ObL’s theology is kinda crappy. But just like the Crusading theology developed by the medieval church was a rather torturous philosophical affair, so to the justifications of the salafist-jihadists, who find creative loopholes to try to justify normally un-Islamic concepts like suicide and harming non-combatants. But both examples should still rightly be regarded as religious in motivation, however shitty the reasoning. ObL was enraged in part because non-Muslim troops were seen to be “defiling” the soil on which are situated the holy cities of Mecca and Medina - that’s idiocy, but it’s religious idiocy.

I phrased it specifically to avoid that argument. The fact that an overwhelming majority of Muslims don’t believe in killing people is evidence that Islam isn’t responsible for people becoming killers.

No, but Islam is still the motivator for this particular group of killers. Or more accurately, certain aspects of their version of Islam are completely emeshed into their motivations, providing both reason and justification in their minds.

Their Muslim fate only chose the theatrics behind the attack. It wasn’t fundamental to their decision to attack. That came from their own twisted minds.

No, sorry - it was fundamental.

I think we’re talking past each other a bit. The OP said:

I run into this argument every now and then, usually followed by "all religions have cooks, and you would be wrong to judge the religion by its fanatics

Not an expert on islam at all, but in this case wasn’t Islamic faith/politics imperative to the attacks?

To which I should have perhaps more clearly replied:

1.) Yes, all religions have kooks and yes it is wrong to judge a religion by its fanatics. and…

2.) But yes, some aspect of Islamic faith/politics were imperative to the attacks. They were imperative because it was the internal religious foment and the associated political dispute with its ruling house in Saudi Arabia that was by far the biggest motivator for ObL. His faith, a particularly violent and purist take on Wahhabi Sunnism, is what propelled his actions.

That this was the case should not be taken as an indictment of Islam as a whole, anymore than the insanity of Reverend Phelps should be taken as an indictment of Christianity as a whole.

[scamartistry]

@Lakai

@Tamerlane

Sure it was. ObL wasn’t upset with U.S. troops being stationed in SA during the Gulf War because he was a Mennonite .

Where in the Koran does it say that you have to attack people who station troops outside Saudi Arabia?

Well not verbatim but here is a couple of quotes from the Koran on how to best deal with Infidels, most seem less than peaceful. And please keep in mind that this is the last and final word from god.
Allah is an enemy to unbelievers. - Sura 2:98

On unbelievers is the curse of Allah. - Sura 2:161

Slay them wherever ye find them and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. - 2:191

Allah will humble the unbelievers. Allah and His apostle are free from obligations to idol-worshipers. Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers. - 9:2-3

When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. - 9:5

Allah has cursed the unbelievers and proposed for them a blazing hell. - 33:60

Unbelievers are enemies of Allah and they will roast in hell. - 41:14

When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens. - 47:4
(different translation: ) When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield, strike off their heads, and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly.

Those who are slain in the way of Allah - he will never let their deeds be lost. Soon will he guide them and improve their condition, and admit them to the Garden, which he has announced for them. - 47:5
Of course these are all horribly taken out of context, but Its hard not to see a pattern.
World would be much worse off without this kind of writing, wouldnt it.

[Magiver]

@Gyrate

@Perciful

It’s really hard to look at the truth isn’t it? I find it disturbing myself but I keep looking and trying to learn all I can about what Islam and Muslims are all about and what they want from us. They are not here to spread good will or to be our friends no matter what they say. Fear says, don’t look" but courage tells me I must.

Do you have the courage to admit that you could be entirely wrong about Islam?

Well, Mohamed was a warrior who killed people and his followers recently burned 6 people alive in protest of the mere MENTION of Koran’s being burned. Did he set a good example or a bad example?

[scamartistry]

@Magiver

@Gyrate

Do you have the courage to admit that you could be entirely wrong about Islam?

Well, Mohamed was a warrior who killed people and his followers recently burned 6 people alive in protest of the mere MENTION of Koran’s being burned. Did he set a good example or a bad example?

Not to forget Muhammad’s execution of roughly 500 Qurayza Jews. I think its uncontroversial to say that Muhammad was NOT a peaceful person. Regarding Islam itself Im not overly convinced. Seems to be a lot violence, racism and bullying, not unlike the other Abrahamic monotheisms.

[Lakai]

@Tamerlane

2.) But yes, some aspect of Islamic faith/politics were imperative to the attacks. They were imperative because it was the internal religious foment and the associated political dispute with its ruling house in Saudi Arabia that was by far the biggest motivator for ObL. His faith, a particularly violent and purist take on Wahhabi Sunnism, is what propelled his actions.

That this was the case should not be taken as an indictment of Islam as a whole, anymore than the insanity of Reverend Phelps should be taken as an indictment of Christianity as a whole.

When you put it that way I can agree with you.

I believe that if all you know is someone’s religion, you don’t really know them. Religion can be twisted in so many different ways that telling someone you’re a Muslim is almost meaningless. All that tells me is that you’re not smart enough to be an atheist.

Of course these are all horribly taken out of context, but Its hard not to see a pattern.
World would be much worse off without this kind of writing, wouldnt it.

The world would be better off without any organized religion. If you’re ok with Christianity, then you’re a hypocrite if you’re not ok with Islam.

[scamartistry]

[quote=“Lakai, post:25, topic:553671”]

@Tamerlane

Of course these are all horribly taken out of context, but Its hard not to see a pattern.
World would be much worse off without this kind of writing, wouldnt it.

The world would be better off without any organized religion. If you’re ok with Christianity, then you’re a hypocrite if you’re not ok with Islam.

Im not okay with any religious dogma, however the distinction is that Christianity has went through some kind of enlightenment phase. Today it is fairly accepted to question Christian teachings and criticize it,. However, I do not see the same tendency when it comes to Islam. Critics in the western world run the risk of being called islamophobe (whatever that means), for critics in a muslim country faith could be far worse…

There is a distinction

[Eyebrows_0f_Doom]

@Perciful

It’s really hard to look at the truth isn’t it? I find it disturbing myself but I keep looking and trying to learn all I can about what Islam and Muslims are all about and what they want from us. They are not here to spread good will or to be our friends no matter what they say. Fear says, don’t look" but courage tells me I must.

Thanks to the OP for a timely topic.

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

[DianaG]

@Enuma_Elish

If this were true, they would quickly eliminate themselves and there would be no problem. Unfortunately, the really committed ones compell others to strap bombs to themselves. The really committed ones are so evil that they think little of sacrificing others to their cause, but are too selfish and cowardly to sacrifice themselves.

The people who actually strap bombs to themselves would probably never get to that point without the help and urging of the really committed ones.

Well, that’s true of all religions. And governments, for that matter.

@Enuma Elish

We have a very small percentage of the population who do this. Not plenty.
And they can mostly be classified as severly mentally ill.

We have enough that they certainly outnumber the people involved in plotting and executing the WTC attacks.

@Enuma Elish

What do random acts of violence have to do with Christianity?

Not much, except as interpreted by fanatics, kinda like with Islam.

[Martiju]

@Eyebrows_0f_Doom

@Perciful

It’s really hard to look at the truth isn’t it? I find it disturbing myself but I keep looking and trying to learn all I can about what Islam and Muslims are all about and what they want from us. They are not here to spread good will or to be our friends no matter what they say. Fear says, don’t look" but courage tells me I must.

Thanks to the OP for a timely topic.

Man Already Knows Everything He Needs To Know About Muslims

I don’t think I’ve ever done this before - but this is worth highlighting for quite a few people in this thread…

[ToeJam]

@Perciful

I find it disturbing myself but I keep looking and trying to learn all I can about what Islam and Muslims are all about and what they want from us. They are not here to spread good will or to be our friends no matter what they say. Fear says, don’t look" but courage tells me I must.

:dubious:
Perhaps you should try treating them as ordinary people, and see how they treat you back? The Xenophobia displayed here is just… blindingly painful. I pretty much learned about Muslims and Islam by having sleepovers, playing video games with 'em and his brothers, going to Acapella shows with 'em, listening to BlackStar albums and singing crappy versions of Metallica’s “Enter Sandman” on Rock band with my Islamic Muslim Buddy and his brothers. Pretty much how I learned about “Muslims”. People are people, and to fear them simply because of their background without getting to know them individually is rather foolish and just brain-numbingly stupid.

Good luck on finding that courage though to approach one of them. Offerings of Chocolate Chip Cookies seem to help, but make sure you don’t look them in their eyes, or comment if the crumbs get in their beards. They *HATE * when people mention that.