Terrorists- Defenders or radical muslims?

Great Debates
1

Some Muslims (and maybe non-Muslims) claim that suicide bombers, those who crashed into the WTC, etc. aren’t doing God’s work by killing the unbelievers as the media sometimes claims, but are retaliating against innocent Americans because of the aid and money that the U.S. gives Israel which doesn’t allow Palestinians to live freely. In this way they compare what terrorists do, to what the U.S. did to innocent Japanese citizens in Hiroshima.

Is there any evidence that 911 and other atrocities that were and are committed by “radical” Muslims are committed because of religious beliefs and not political ones?

2

I prefer to think they do it because they’re assholes.

3

I would guess it probably differs from person to person, and quite probably there’s a mix of both religious faith and political hatred in all Islamic terrorists. People can have more than one reason to do something.

I’ve never heard of the comparison to the nuclear bombing, though. New one on me.

4

It seems hard, in many cases, to distinguish religious beliefs from political beliefs. It seems especially so in this case.

I don’t buy into the idea that these guys are psychopaths, naturally different from us civilized westerners, genetically evil, whatever. So I suppose I am left with the idea that like Nazi soldiers, not all of whom could have been totally evil just by the laws of chance, they are able to justify their actions to themselves in some way as positive. In the sense that I can wrap my mind around it, I imagine that their thoughts are mostly political as we would think of them. They seek to achieve a goal rather than to prove their piety or to punish sinners.

This is not anything close to evidence, I should probably just shut up.

5

I think it’s pretty clear that the terrorists who are targeting America aren’t doing it because they want to kill unbelievers. If that was the case, there are many unbelievers much closer to home. Why not just head to Egypt and kill some Coptic Christians or to Lebanon and kill some of their Christians. Hell, there are small Christian communities in Iraq that I’m sure would be an easy target.

Instead, al Qaeda and its ilk are targeting America for political reasons. Its support if Israel is a large one, as well as its support of the leaders of Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both of whom are viewed by al Qaeda as being corrupt. These terrorists also want to overthrow the governments in these countries. Would they be targeting these Muslims if their beef was merely that some people don’t believe in Islam?

6

Why can’t they be both, like the late Earl Warren?

7

Their motivation is political in the sense that they want to destroy societies which harbor and foster enemies of Islam. Their religion is the enabler for their choice of suicide missions as their weapon. I haven’t seen any evidence that the 9/11 crowd is only weakly religious, agnostic, or atheistic. It’s a little easier to deliberate die for a cause if this life is not the whole show, and if there are some virgins waiting. Their enemy is not so much non-believers in general as it is non-believers who are perceived as enemies of Islam. Their loyalty is not political affiliation, but fealty to Allah.

8

Probably. But plenty of people from all sort of cultures have willingly died for their nationalism and not because of their religion, regardless of whether or not dying may be easier for the religious.

Direct evidence of this is what I’m looking for. I have a feeling you’re correct, but when I bring up how Islam is harmful to some of my Muslim friends, they respond by telling me how the media is falsely blaming the religion, which they claim is not the motivator for the fighting and killing.

I guess what I’m looking for is something along the lines of statements by Bin Laden or other leaders of radical Islamic groups where you can point to Islam as the direct reason acts were carried out. Something like, “Our actions have been carried out to kill the unbelievers wherever we find them in accordance to the will of Allah.”

9

bin Laden has made a number of statements. These are widely available. One from 2002 begins with some quotes from the Q’uran.

He then lists some of the grievances he claims against the West.

But there is no distinction between religion and politics in Islam, particularly Islamo-fascism. The idea is to set up an Islamic society, subject to sharia law. bin Laden says so explicitly -

He then goes on to call on us to outlaw alcohol, eliminate gay rights, gambling and stock ownership, women’s right to work, etc.

So al-Queda attacked us because we are not an Islamo-fascist society. Both religious and political ideas combined.

Regards,
Shodan

10

It’s worth noting that Al Quaeda didn’t even bother using Palestine as a propaganda point until well after 9/11, when they despertely needed support because we were smashing the Taliban in Afganistan. I’m sure Al-Q has no love for Israel, but the unification of all Muslims under their banner apparently takes precedence.

11

True, just as I suspect bin Laden doesn’t give a particular shit about AIDS, but still feels it necessary to blame its appearance on the West. Likewise pollution - he’s simply trying to rally as many as possible around his brand of thinking.

Well, providing they buy 100% into his brand of Islamo-fascism. I would bet he would quickly wind up like Phred Phelps - condemning those he sees as luke-warm on his side with the same vehemence he condemns those who are really against him.

Regards,
Shodan

12

But this part is he most telling:

It wasn’t “Because you attack us and you haven’t submitted to Islam”.

That’s not a logical conclusion given the reasons for attacks was fully answered in Q1. What is being asked for from America after the fact is seems irrelevant to the answer given for the reason for the attacks.

I remember Bin Laden using Palestine as a reason for the hatred towards America well before 9-11 and specifically saying in an interview that the WTC bombing in '93 had nothing to do with religion and everything to do with U.S. support to Israel. Here are some statements by Bin Laden in '96.

13

It’s the same thing.

‘We attacked you because of this, and we advise you to do that or we will continue to attack you’ is what bin Laden is saying. He gives a lot of reasons why he hates America, including support for Palestinians, because we invented AIDS, because we trade on the stock market, because we don’t subject ourselves to sharia law, because Clinton had an affair with an intern, and so forth. As I mentioned earlier, I doubt that he really cares about the Kyoto treaty or the bombing of Nagasaki, but he is throwing a lot of shit and hoping some of it will stick.

Actually, yes it was.

Regards,
Shodan

14

Well, I only read the first page or so, but the first statements listed on the page to which you linked are about Saudi Arabia and the US presence there, and don’t mention the Palestinians. Lebanon, Iraq, and Bosnia, yes, but he doesn’t get around to complaining about Palestine specifically until 1997.

Regards,
Shodan

15

Alas, the Copts in Egypt, Marionites in Lebanon & Iraqui Christians are all being targeted.

16

C’mon, attacking the U.S. for “Bush’s crusade” and all of the other reasons here:

Is not the same as attacking us for religious reasons.

‘We attacked you because of this, and we advise you to do that or we will continue to attack you’ is what bin Laden is saying.
[/QUOTE]

No, the religious parts were “a call to the U.S.”. You are ignoring the answer to the question, "Why are we fighting and opposing you? "

It was a simple “Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.”.

17

:shrugs:

If you want to pick out one set of reasons from bin Laden’s various screeds and ignore the rest, go ahead. As I said earlier, there is no real distinction to be made between religion and politics in the mind of Islamo-fascists. If bin Laden is so focussed on Palestine, why did he make his first attacks in Somalia? Why did his first manifesto mention only the US presence in Saudi Arabia during the first Gulf War?

Regards,
Shodan

18

I didn’t. I showed you that the answer given by bin Laden was that the reason for attacks was given in one sentence: "“Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.”. I’m not ignoring what was “a call to the U.S.”. I pointed out that the calling to wasn’t and isn’t the reason for any attacks.

Saying it is easy. That’s not what I’m looking for.

You tell me. Do you think it’s because the attacks in Somalia were based on religious differences?

19

I agree.