Nearly half of British Muslims back Bin Laden

Great Debates
1

From http://www.sunday-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2001/11/04/stiusausa01025.html

Go to the link for the full article.

Well, I must admit, this is shocking, even for me, and I never had any delusions that the Muslim world was with us, regardless of how many governments we can get to join our alliance.

But we’re talking British Muslims here. They live in a westernized democracy, with all kinds of wonderful advantages. They have no excuses like poverty, ignorance, illiteracy, or lack of access to a free press. And yet:

40% think Bin Laden is justified to mount war against the U.S.
11% believed there was justification for the September 11th attacks.
96% oppose the bombing of Afghanistan.
68% value their faith over their British citizenship.
61% oppose efforts to capture or kill Bin Laden.
40% believe that Britons who fight for the Taliban are justified.

My God! What the hell are they thinking? I wonder what they’d think if the British government rounded up every Muslim woman in the country who didn’t cover herself head-to-toe in a burqa and summarily executed them in public. I’d take a wild guess they’d have at least a minor problem with it, despite the fact that that’s what the Taliban does every day. And, like I said, because they live in Britain, they know the Taliban does this. They don’t get censored government propaganda like most Muslim nations do.

So, what can we do? Why do Muslims think like this? Is there any way whatsoever to win the hearts of the Islamic world, or does their slavish devotion to their faith trump anything else we can come up with?

[fixed link]

[Edited by bibliophage on 11-04-2001 at 02:29 AM]

2

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3

delete the colon from the end of the URL and it works. And for future reference, it’s always good to either leave a space between a URL and any punctuation, or enclose the url in [url][/url] tags first.

4

If simply being a citizen of Britan is more important to 30% of them than their faith then I would say that their faith is not too strong at all.

They still get censored propaganda. They simply filter out what they don’t want to hear. The only difference is in the Middle East the goverment helps them.

5

Well, gee, Opus; I value my faith over my citizenship. My citizenship is something extended to me by law; my faith is something I believe, something I think. The law can’t remove my ability to think.

6

A few points:

  • They interviewed people outside mosques, so they selected the more devout ones.
  • A large proportion of British moslems are of Pakistani origin, and many of these are not assimilated.
  • Many of them live in depressed towns and have a chip on their shoulder about UK society (look at the riots last summer), so would tend to take the opportunity to give provocative answers
  • And I bet the questions were leading, in the interests of getting a good story.

I suspect the story is exaggerating the seriousness of the situation. (NO!! A Rupert Murdoch publication would never do that!!)

7

Yeah, what Hemlock said. That’s such a startling statistic that my first question would be, “Well, who exactly did they poll?”

I’d have to wonder about the survey sample. Let’s bear in mind that since they’re polling people outside a mosque, presumably leaving, that the survey sample is skewed not only in favor of “British Muslims who go to mosque (church?)”, but also in favor of “people who don’t mind stopping to talk to a pollster”. So it’s not “a survey of British Muslims”, it’s a survey of “devout British Muslims who don’t mind stopping to talk to a pollster.”

8

Maybe next time they should only interview moslems coming out of pubs (not an uncommon sight in some parts). :slight_smile:

9

First, I think that DDG has best summed up the poll. It is hard to generalise from this.

Second, I’ve been trying, in a way desperately, myself, to get a sense of opinion. My livlihood is this.

My best read:
(a) Moorings are cut loose. This is a time of profound change. There is a great deal of fluidity now in the Muslim community.

(b) One can find significant differences btw regular and non-regular mosque goers.

© the most religious (in terms of ostententious practice) in the west may be the most radicalized.

(d) the same group is most given, for a variety of reasons, to Us vs Them attitudes. (Not unique. See the unlamented Wildest Bill threads.)

(e) I am unable to determine on a personal basis which way the tide is flowing, be it in the Western Muslim community or in the region.

I am personally unnerved by some comm. that I have recieved. From people I would not expect. Yet, on the other hand, I have seen a signif response against ObL thinking.

What does this mean? (a) Straight forward surveying in re opinion is not workable in re a community which is distrustful. All such results have to be treated cautiously. Selection and reporting biases are going to be high. (b) There are openings to spin the right way. © There is, above all among recent immigrants, a disturbingly large reservoir of alienation, not all of which is addressable in rational way.

I’m not sure if this has been helpful. I can say that even as a professional whose job is to look at this, I have not yet been able to get a handle on this.

(DDG: have you ever thought of being an analyist, I do say you’ve got the right instincts.)

10

Good old Sunday Times, that bastion of neutrality and favourite of the Tories…hang on there has to be a conflict there…somewhere.

I would also like to see a breakdown of the age ranges of those interviewed, since my experience is that the younger people are more radical than the older ones, and out of interest, I wonder how many women were interviewed, since they were leaving a mosque it won’t be all that many, you hardly ever see women on tv news clips in mosques in their religious ceremonies, sometimes I wonder if they are even allowed to participate.

11

Another possible point of interest - At which mosques were the interviews conducted? It’s my understanding that several in London are notorious for their radicalized, fundamentalist bent and it’s my guess that these would be best known to the press since they’ve been in the news lately. The temperment of different congregations is liable to vary enrmously. One won’t get the same response at a liberal Quaker meeting as you are likely to get at conservative Southern Baptist service.

I admit I find attitudes like the ones expressed in these poll responses a little worrisome. Especially as I’m sure they represent the views of somebody ( but then I’m resigned to the unfortunate reality of a lot of the factors Collounsbury mentioned ). But like others, I am a little sceptical about ascribing too much to a single of sample of uncertain provenance. Not to mention the fact that I’m a little leery of media polls in general.

  • Tamerlane
12

For all of you explaining this away because the polls were taken outside of mosques:

Ummm … I’m supposed to feel better because this is only the “devout Muslims who go to mosques regularly?” Why?

I’m a little bit concerned that even this segment of the Islamic world feels that way.

Said it before, will say it again: Where in the HELL are the moderate Muslims? Where are the Muslim clerics who think that bin Laden and al Qaeda are barbarians, and what they did on September 11 in the USA is an atrocity?

Let’s hear you. Let’s hear you more. Let’s hear you louder. Let’s hear you incessantly.

Because it ain’t happenin’ now. And I’m beginning to form some opinions about that fact.

13

In addition, one assumes they were polled before the switch in emphasis away from population centre’s to on, and behind, the Taliban front lines (on around Wed-Thursday, if memory serves) i.e. pre and post B52’s.

Further, exactly when were they polled: Immediately after reported collateral damage reports (alleged bombed hospital, Aid storage buildings, etc) when anti-bombing sentiment would be higher, or on a relatively ‘quiet’ day ?

Having said that, the only stat that really surprises me is the 11% in favour of 9/11. In every vox pop on-the-street interview I’ve seen with UK Muslims, there has been an overwhelming consensus against the bombing, but that’s also now becoming the norm within the wider society (this weekend support for bombing is down to, I believe 62% in the wider community (from 74% two weeks ago) – it’s fallen at a faster rate in the past few days.

FWIW, I believe the Muslim community (in general) sees a very, very clear distinction between legitimate action against the perpetrators of 9/11 and the bombing of Afghanistan – the latter involves their Muslim brothers and sisters, the former, an unjust and illegitimate form of Islam.

Unfortunately IMHO, the bombing is reinforcing OBL’s video messages and reminding UK Muslims – even the most liberal minded - of what they have always perceived to be the case: US Imperial arrogance imposes itself on the Muslim world and Muslim opinion (in this case for the benefit of pretty pictures on the evening news) deaf to other reasoning and determined to pursue its own agenda regardless of the consequences.

The bombing campaign (at least in relation to its pre-Wed/Thurs strategy shift) is perceived, IMHO, by Muslims to indicate that the US has not altered one jot from it’s 30-50 year track record - something OBL reiterates time and again in those videos.

The above reflects (accurately, I hope) a very wide range of interviews I’ve seen over the past 10 days or so with seeminly average, every day Brits (of the Islamic faith).

14

It is not only in the UK but also in the rest of Europe there are many muslims with those views (and probably in the US as well, although I imagine people with those opinions there will be less inclined to express them in public). Say what you will but there has to be a limit to this PC thing about “diversity” being such a good thing. There is some diversity we can do without and that is the people who believe in destroying our culture and lifestyle.

They come to western nations because their own cultures did not treat them well. They come here in search of a better life and then they use the opportunities they get here against the very countries that offered them those opportunities.

I do not care if they are few or many. It only takes a few to commit terrorist acts. My acceptance of diversity has a limit. If have no tolerance for those who think it is OK to try to destroy our western culture and lifestyle.

15

The overwhelming majority were born here. In general, these are educated people who are not politically naive. They have been tuned into how the First World treats the Third World – and the implications of that treatment - far longer and in far more depth than most of us.

For example, stop almost any British born Muslim around here on the street and ask them about the World Bank and you’ll get a friggin Thesis.

You might accept some of that is propagandist indoctrination but, IMHO, it’s difficult to ignore the basic premise of their anger.

16

I don’t deny that the U.S. has done a tremendous amount of damage throughout the Third World. I still believe that anyone who supports terrorism for any reason is a menace to society. Any religious group that promotes terrorism has a significant evil element to its makeup. I consider it tremendously hypocritical for supporters of terrorism to wish violence to be committed against the very societies in which they live. I can relate to and understand feelings of anger and resentment against the West for its treatment of the Third World. Still, I cannot help but question the morality of those who propose terrorism as a means of dealing with such problems. Terrorism strikes me as the basest, most primitive and least civilized response that any culture can choose in response to a perceived threat. I would strongly support efforts to prevent supporters of terrorism from entering Western nations, and I would also support the deportation of such people to their beloved Middle Eastern countries. If the West is so terrible, why do the bastards choose to migrate and live there?

17

As LC pointed out, most were born here, they know no other life, and if you had family in another country who were living in poverty you might take a view that your own relative wealth is at their expense, there might be some guilt, some anger, an attempt to blame someone.

Many folk migrate for economic reasons, but they don’t have to become a part of the host society, and they don’t feel any gratitude, Western society wealth is a means to an end to many.

I would also point out that the quoted statement is bordering on stereotyping and other less pleasant things, the reasons are so obvious I shall not go into them, just a suggestion that the owner take a look and think about what it implies.

18

If the reaction the moderate muslims face from their communities when they voice their opposition to Bin Laden and the 11 Sept. attacks is anything like the vitriol often aimed at US and UK citizens who dare to criticise the bombing in Afghanistan, then I’m not surprised that they are being less than vocal with their views.

One need only look on these boards to find examples of posters who have been taken apart for suggesting that the US retaliation is poorly thought-out or politically motivated or whatever - even MPs here in the UK have faced the wrath of Government whips when they have voiced their reservations.

And this is all from supposedly “civilised” and “free-thinking” individuals - if this is how “we” behave it’s not hard to imagine the opposition a moderate muslim cleric might face from the “hard-liners” in his own community were he to criticise Bin Laden; I think I’d keep a pretty low profile too…

Just a thought.
– Quirm

19

They’re all over Michigan, Milo. They’re not loud or incessant, but I partly blame the media for not giving them much of an outlet. I mean, they’ll bust their balls to get some former general to talk about war, but they didn’t work very hard to seek out U.S. muslim reaction. And here in Michigan, it’s not like that would be hard work. But what I have seen has been heartening–leaders condemning the attacks, saying that it’s a complete and utter bastardization of Islam. Even bin Laden’s own family disowns him…

20

I’m with Hairypotter. get rid of all those people whose culture supports terrorism. Just kick em out. Round up all the Irish in the U.S. and send em back home. Who cares that most were born here they all claim to be Irish first.

There is a culture of terrorism in Ireland. People shooting eachother,bombs going off left right and center. In the middle of busy streets no less. Even sending bombs to other countries. I’m sure we’ve all read about bombs in England placed there by those nasty Irish terrorists.

Pack em all up an send em back.

d