Why you?
Iran contra.
Support of the mujahadiin.
5% of you holding passports (dubious statistic I agree but obviously some way toward the truth).
Support of Israeli west bank settlements through arms deals.
fuck it arms deals.
arms deals are why you lot got 9/11 ed .
those who live by the sword, die by the sword. Glib but undeniably true.
and for fucks sake dont attribute morals to this question.
morals do not intervene in the workings of government.
remember that america has been responsible for the deaths of millions of human beings so please whatever your argument, do not attribute morals to this.
Indeed, and while I’m still on the subject of woolly leftie thinking …
Gosh, is this explanation already fooling people?
Four weeks ago, it was my understanding that the war was being fought to stop Iraq from possessing weapons of mass destruction. Are you allowed to change the cause for war retroactively when you start to worry that the first one was baloney?
The difference between the Osamas and the US is that Osama bin Laden would gladly kill a billion people and would foreceably subject the rest to an Islamist dictatorship if it suited his aims because, frankly, he’s a sociopath who doesn’t give a shit about human life and, because he is subject to now law or structural restraint, has no reason to. The American government has to be restrained in its willingness to kill and oppress people because the people that vote for it will only tolerate a limited amount of killing if they think it’s justified. But let’s not fool ourselves into thinking the freedom of the wretched denizens of foreign countries is even a concern, much less the most important concern, of U.S. foreign policy.
The U.S., when you get right down to it, cares very little about the freedom of Iraqis, just as it cared very little about the freedom of Chileans or Iranians or Cubans. If it suits American interests to support a brutal, murderous dictator, history would suggest they have absolutely no compunctions about supporting a brutal, murderous dictator. Not that this is at all unique to America; I don’t think France or Canada cares, either. Not many Canadians seemed to care about Canada’s government helping the government of Sudan slaughter its own people so we could get cheap oil, and we all know France’s penchant for supporting the world’s nastier regimes. A country’s economic interests will always trump its concern for the citizens of another country.
Oh, L_C , my dear old bean, just who are you calling a woolly leftie?
Such intemperance.
I have no dilussions over what this war was fought about. We would have no interest in liberating the Iraqi people if we didn’t think Sadam was a threat and if the region didn’t have such a strategic importance.
That doesn’t change the fact that Iraq and it’s people will end up better off without Saddaam. So it’s really win-win.
Yeah, that’s a valid reason. Attack a country because we don’t visit third world countries like Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria.
Alright, I’ll bite. What’s your solution? Should we abandon our Israeli alies because it’s inconvenient? Should we simply leave the region alone (and unstable) and just write them oil checks each month? Instead of simply pointing fingers, why don’t you make a recomendation as to what sort of action we should take?
The entire problem is that these countries are run by petty dictators and sheiks. The countries are dirt poor because their rulers siphon off all the wealth. They resent the West (and especially Israel) because we are living in wealth and they are living in poverty. They are a proud people who were once the center of civilization, unfortunately the rest of civilization has passed them by.
So, IMHO, until these countries can get their act together there is going to be a lot of resentment and anger.
No, but we should stop treating them with kid gloves and look the other way when they get overzealous against the Palestinians.
IMO, the ideal situation for the U.S. with regards to the Israel/Palestinian thing has been to treat both sides as equals – give them both equal amounts of aid, and impose equally strict conditions for that aid. It’s hard to overlook the American slant towards Israel when we’re giving them millions of dollars in military hardware every year while they’re still violating UN resolutions against West Bank settlements.
I’m sure the western/European colonial powers who used to occupy the land had something to do with it as well.
Uh, yeah. :rolleyes:
And insulting them with accusations like “they hate us because they envy our freedoms” or “the rest of civilization has passed them by” doesn’t help any.
Oh yeah? What’s that exactly? Lots of countries used to be colonies (including the US). All of them aren’t living in poverty. What responsibiity does the Arab world have for their own conditions?
God forbid anyone offends the precious Muslims.
They don’t hate us because they envy our freedom. They hate us because we are so much wealthier than they are and people tell them it’s because we siphoning off their wealth. They hate us because they feel we always dictate terms or foreign policy to them.
Or perhaps they hate you because you actually HAVE been siphoning off their wealth for the last 80 years or so… The Middle East is a conflictive area in which many western powers, particularly the US have been meddling. Israel, a state created out of thin air and kept alive artificially is a good example. Iraq was planned from scratch, taking into account exclusively its oil production. Kuwait was specifically placed there to deny Iraq of its exit to the Gulf sea. The Shah of Iran was sponsored by the US, and when he was replaced by that lunatic Khomeini, Saddam Hussein was sold weapons to keep him in check… want more examples?
If you arbitrarily mess with nations, you ll manage to get plenty of people pissed off at you. I would have thought that we d have learnt THAT from the Vienna congress, at least…
What’s my solution? It is about time you asked. The problem isn’t simply that that “these countries are run by petty dictators and sheiks.” Nor are they poor because “their rulers siphon off all the wealth.” The problem is, and they are poor because, US corporations and bankers are siphoning off the wealth and just giving a cut to the sheiks and rulers to keep them obedient. It may interest you to know that, of what I have seen, the Arabs are just as disgusted at their leaders as they are at the US interests involved. The Arab masses can eat shit as far as they’re concerned and that’s what pisses them off. Selling Isaelis arms and giving tacit support to the militaristic nature of Israeli rule in Palestine doesn’t help.
As a solution try not looting the wealth out of other countries, including Sth American naitons where the majority of terrorists actually originate (despite the media bullshit) and where American flag burning is very common. In the short term to secure national security try taking a look at the immediate causes of 9/11. Intelligence failed. Local security and law enforcement failed. Immigration failed. Where did the heads roll in these agencies? Instead the solution was just to encroach on civil liberties and invade a nation from which NONE of the terrorists came. The CIA has long since stopped serving the genuine interests of US citizens. The FBI spends more time making the US seem dangerous so as to justify budget increases rather than actually making it less dangerous. And the INS (now the BCIS) is a quagmire of bureaucratic red-tape that keeps them running around in circles so much they forget to check if an immigrant is a terrorist. Instead of handling the actual problems, bigger budgets and greater powers are granted to these already corrupt agencies. These problems and the inherent politics that drive them need to be reformed.
But I guess that wasn’t a part of any of Bush’s national addresses so maybe we should just settle for the explanation that they just hate us for our freedoms. :rolleyes:
Then they ought to be bombing and blasting the shit out of France, Germany, Russia, and Belgium. These folks are all into arms deals, and nobody is bitching at them.
Yeah, that is it. Blast away at a country whose citizens don’t need any kind of travel documents within their own country, and who can travel thousands of miles and visit just about every type of environment there is on earth without leaving their own country. Attack and kill them because there is some much to see and so much room to travel in that one country that most citizens don’t have to travel outside of the country for any reason during their lives.:rolleyes:
Absolutely. The function of government is to provide the maximum benefit for its citizens, without regard to citizens of other nations when their interests are in conflict. No single life is more important than any other, yet in placing the lives of its citizens first, governments regularly make immoral decisions. No world empire ever came to be such by looking out for the other guy. The success of any government has always been predicated on its desire and willingness to embrace immorality. The U.S. did this in its genocidal dealings with the American indians, and in the subjugation of slaves, as well as in various invasions of other countries throughout its history, often in the name of bringing democracy and civilization to them, while in truth, seeking to exploit the invaded countries for their wealth. Please note that this is not meant to be a criticism of the U.S. or any other nation. People are greedy and self-centered; why should we expect our government to behave differently? If only this weren’t so.
I beg to differ, sir. IMHO people in general are not self-centered and greedy. Some are but it is not an inherent quality. This is why those that do act self-centered and greedy attempt to deny such traits and defend themselves. Only the smallest minority of sick individuals own up to such qualities without compunction. It just so happens that politics attracts the selfish and greedy like dog shit attracts flies simply because it is a great line of work to get in to serve self interest. Unfortunately they happen to drag the rest of the population along with them.
I admire the fact that you can acknowledge that governments are prone to immorality. If more people could recognize this they may turn their attention towards the policies of, and crimes perpetrated by, their own administration that predicated incidents like 9/11 instead of bitching about it and inventing such nonsense as “they hate us because of our freedom.”
I also challenge your claim that a government’s success depends on its and willingness to embrace immorality. That’s like saying an individuals well-being is dependant upon how effectively he screws his family members or workmates. I concede that a person who robs money from his family and friends may seemingly get ahead at first but he will come unstuck the first time someone exacts revenge or when he needs a hand out of a tight spot. And so it is with a nation. Rome fell, the British Empire fell and the US is falling. Each was built upon productivity and sound organization with statesmen and true visionary leaders at the helm. Having achieved prosperity each then attracted the professional politicians, lawyers and bankers (the flies swarming on the dog shit) and were slowly eroded by their new leaders until the once great nation/empire was rotten to the core and waiting to die.
Please note that this is meant to be a criticism of the United States and every other nation that has corrupted the foundation upon which their prosperity was built.
I don’t believe this is true. Virtually every 3rd world arena (eastern europe, Africa, South america, S.E. asia) tends to approve of the US by about a 2-1 ratio. The opposite exists in the middle east, a 2-1 disapproval rate.
read ‘what the world thinks in 2002’
especially pages 53-56 of the report. 71% of vietnamese have a favorable view of the US. Consider the fact that we involved ourselves in a civil war for about 16 years, carpet bombed them and sprayed agent orange.
Now consider Kuwait. What have we done to Kuwait? Saved it from pillage & plunder by Saddam Hussein, yes. But what have we done wrong to them? They have a per capita income of $15,100 a year. How are we siphoning off their wealth? Only 28% of them have a favorable view of the US. That is roughly average in the middle east.
http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/02/26/gallup.muslims/
And, for the record, how do we siphon off their wealth? Please explain it to me. I thought OPEC set oil prices.
If their hatred is due to plunder, why do the Vietnamese, Phillipinos, or Hondurans have a favorable view in the 71-90% range while the Kuwaitis only have a 28% favorable view of the US? If your statements were true (dislike is due to meddling) wouldn’t the Vietnamese hate us and the Kuwaitis like us?
So none of the terrorists came from Afghanistan? Even though 15 of hte 19 came from Saudi Arabia, i think at least 7 of them had false passports, so there is no telling where the terrorists came from. But Al Qaeda was based in Afghanistan, i fail to see how this is wrong.
I don’t see the point of arguing this issue. Is the nouveau conspiracy theory on the Arab street that the terrorists came from South America? Was Israel behind this one too? Damn Zionists. I give up.
Who said no one was willing to admit US mistakes? You are a cynic, plain and simple and everyone but you probably knows this. To claim that anyone who isn’t an unforgiving, one sided cynic isn’t willing to address reality is a myth. You are on an extreme side of this debate, not the center and you do not represent fairness, and people who disagree with you are not inherietly blind.
I find the idea that the US isn’t morally superior to Saddam’s regime hard to swallow. I can’t even argue with this. Yes we’ve done evil, but i still think our domestic scientific advances & international policy is more humane & progressive than Iraq’s. Prove we are more evil. Prove we destroy more lives, or that our warfare is more inhumane, or that our contributions to humanity are less, or that we do less to promote human rights in the world.
Ugh. i see no point arguing about these things but i continue to do so. I found this on the front page of Foxnews’s website. If any american media outlet is willing to give a half ass pro america POV its going to be fox news. Yet they still report this stuff that you claim CNN won’t cover.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,84393,00.html
PS, “Up to 300 Iraqis” who are protesting due to lack of order, food & water does not constitute a big deal.
When I say that I do not mean to criticize the US, I simply mean to say that I do not expect its government to act any differently. Criticism, by its very nature, is meant to analyze how any given art form, or behavior of a person, or any act that a man makes, does or does not achieve its intended purpose. If, as I maintain, the purpose of a government is to look out for the welfare of its citizens, the US gov’t has been highly successful. But please explain to me how the US has corrupted the foundation of its prosperity. How does a government corrupt such a foundation, when it was built in part upon the backs of a slave work force? How does a government corrupt such a foundation, when it was built in part upon the destruction of a whole race of indigenous peoples? You know, the pot calling the kettle black, and all that.
“Yeah, that is it. Blast away at a country whose citizens don’t need any kind of travel documents within their own country, and who can travel thousands of miles and visit just about every type of environment there is on earth without leaving their own country. Attack and kill them because there is some much to see and so much room to travel in that one country that most citizens don’t have to travel outside of the country for any reason during their lives.”
you imbecile i wasnt saying that because you holiday in florida that you deserve to die.
my point is ignorance a lack of subtelty and understanding in handling foreign powers. Its called diplomacy but the american habit of staying only in their country cant help with this.
and to the guy who mentioned france etc
yes russia did that and they have had similar problems with the chechens
the french have an extremely effective and hard hitting secret service that stops these attacks before they happen.
the germans have not got involved anyiwhere near as seriously as the americans.
jesus guys dont you see my point that the americans dont understand anyone outside of ytheir own country?
do you think this is healthy?
and arms dealing is only damaging to security depending on who you sell it to and where.