“Yeah, that is it. Blast away at a country whose citizens don’t need any kind of travel documents within their own country, and who can travel thousands of miles and visit just about every type of environment there is on earth without leaving their own country. Attack and kill them because there is some much to see and so much room to travel in that one country that most citizens don’t have to travel outside of the country for any reason during their lives.”
you imbecile i wasnt saying that because you holiday in florida that you deserve to die.
my point is ignorance a lack of subtelty and understanding in handling foreign powers. Its called diplomacy but the american habit of staying only in their country cant help with this.
and to the guy who mentioned france etc
yes russia did that and they have had similar problems with the chechens
the french have an extremely effective and hard hitting secret service that stops these attacks before they happen.
the germans have not got involved anyiwhere near as seriously as the americans.
jesus guys dont you see my point that the americans dont understand anyone outside of ytheir own country?
do you think this is healthy?
and arms dealing is only damaging to security depending on who you sell it to and where.
stop reacting childishly to points that require thought
the passport comment was a hint at the reasons behind americas lack of relationship with any powers other than eastern europe and britain at the moment.
kepp your friends close and your enemies even closer.
america does not practice this philosophy within their diplomacy.
Actually a great deal of Muslim extremist violence to date has been directed at, or at least internal to, Muslim states. The most extreme example of this is Algeria’s recent woes.
That is the kind of jingonistic thinking that makes me want to become a terrorist. Fortunately for all of us I don’t want to give up A) Chocolate B) SDMB C) Books and D) Sex… Ok I am not kidding anyone I gave up the last item in my last quite a while ago.
There seems to be a misunderstanding with regard to my point, sir. I wasn’t making any suggestions as to where the 9/11 terrorists came from and I certainly wasn’t asserting that they were from Sth America. I was simply including the fact of that region being subject to economic plundering by US banks and corporations. And I was then juxtaposing that with the fact that most terrorism aimed at the US comes from Sth America. It’s simply an incidental situation that I used to back up my point—if the power-brokers in the US continue to screw other nations for all they can, it will have violent repercussions for the people of the US.
I have no conspiracy theory to present. Just what seems to me to be wide-spread corruption and incompetence in government agencies that is cultivating dangerous circumstance for Americans.
I don’t recall anyone saying no-one was willing to admit US mistakes. What I am saying is that it would well behoove folks that are quick to vilify other cultures, nations and groups to take a peek at what their own culture, nation and groups are doing. IMHO the best place to start cleaning up the world is one’s own back yard. In my experience those that would prefer to focus the light of blame on others have the most to hide.
Next, to your cynic accusation: I’m not sure if you haven’t ever bothered to look up what “cynic” means or if you are just prefer to pin a label on someone so as to avoid having to state a rational argument. A cynic is someone who believes that people in all their actions are only motivated by selfishness. My viewpoint is represented in a post I made yesterday on this very same thread that I guess you just conveniently missed:
“I beg to differ, sir. IMHO people in general are not self-centered and greedy. Some are but it is not an inherent quality. This is why those that do act self-centered and greedy attempt to deny such traits and defend themselves. Only the smallest minority of sick individuals own up to such qualities without compunction. It just so happens that politics attracts the selfish and greedy like dog shit attracts flies simply because it is a great line of work to get in to serve self interest. Unfortunately they happen to drag the rest of the population along with them.”
(By the way, your “everyone but you probably knows this” comment is best left in the school-yard. This is simply a pathetic attempt to create the illusion that “everyone” has this opinion. If you feel you need to gather imaginary support for your ideas, maybe you should rethink them.)
Perhaps you find it hard to swallow because you take it as a personal affront. I can’t see how you get son personally offended when the acts and policies of your government are scrutinized. That you can’t argue with this speaks volumes. Most in the US aren’t cognizant of what their government gets up to which I guess has a lot to do with why so many were at a loss as to why 9/11 occurred. As for proving that we are more evil—I can’t do that nor do I mean to imply that. I simply mean to say that the US has no claim to moral superiority. To that end I can only point out a few things and then the rest is up to you.
Saddam is vilified in the media primarily for the following reasons: 1. He lives the high life while many in his nation live in poverty. 2. He killed a bunch of his own people. 3. He invaded Kuwait. America in comparison: 1. Take the high life that the US President lives and then take a look at the vast homeless population in a metropolis near you. 2. George Washington who is proudly regarded as one of America’s founders killed a bunch of Americans to quash insurrection not long after America won the War of Independence. Abe Lincoln killed a whole bunch of southerners to preserve the union during the Civil War. Who was right and who was wrong depends on who tells the story and the victor always writes the history. 3. America invaded Afghanistan and now Iraq. But, you say, America was justified. Well if you asked some, Iraq invading Kuwait was justified too. Kuwaitis were stealing Iraqi oil by cross-drilling under the border.
May I suggest being a little less quick to get on your high horse and a little more inclined to learn the facts, whatever those facts may imply.
I can concede your point. They covered it. I stand corrected. Please note, however, that the links I provided were one and two days earlier than the Fox coverage. Do you think that if the story hadn’t been broken elsewhere that the US media would’ve ignored it? Just something to think about.
Well it seemed like a big deal to the news outlets when Iraqis were apparently celebrating in the streets. And I’m not sure that if you and your family were lacking order, food and water after an invading army had occupied your neighborhood that you would consider it “no big deal.”
How about criticism of the intended purpose itself? Per your use of criticism, Hitler is only prone to criticism in that he lost WWII. That his intended purpose of genocide was well achieved, leaves it immune to criticism?
Successful? Like on 9/11?
Sir, please understand that a nation hated by millions is not having its welfare looked out for. The US government has too often looked out for the interests of those funding election campaigns and the means employed abroad are what have bred the very hatred that apparently threatens Americans.
The foundation of prosperity has been corrupted like this: At the beginning of the 20th century the federal government implemented this thing called income tax that was invented by Karl Marx. That income tax has allowed the federal government to grow into an enormous parasite riding on the backs of the working man, bleeding productivity out of the economy. Then in the early 1970’s the US government decided to float the US dollar, no longer pinning its value to the solid commodity of gold but rather leaving the dollar to be manipulated and inflated beyond recognition. Money is a tool of trade that measures economic exchange. When that measurement becomes an arbitrary figure that can be screwed with, the emphasis shifts from productivity and real economic viability to market indexes and interest rates. Money itself becomes a commodity to trade and the entire economy is perverted. Furthermore, most of the government consists of lawyers who, collectively, make a huge living out of making the law complicated and drawn-out. To top it all off the government is essentially run by bankers who produce nothing for society yet funnel sickening volumes of prosperity out of the economy. I’ll leave it at that for now but I’d be happy to expound on any part of it if you’d like.
I do not in any way justify slavery or slaughter of indigenous peoples. Slavery was a solution for greedy men to increase their own profits, not to increase productivity. The productivity would not have been any lower had they paid a work-force—they just would have made less of a personal profit. The greater economy would have actually been more prosperous if the money had been in more hands. As for the slaughter of Indians, the foundation of a productive nation never requires the slaughter of anyone. Very occasionally it requires defense, but never slaughter. What made America great wasn’t the slaughter of indigenous peoples. That slaughter was perpetrated out of fear and/or greed. The prosperity that followed grew in spite of the crimes, not because of the crimes.
I never said I was opposed to scrutiny, just the idea that the US isn’t morally superior to Iraq. I have no problem with people listing the US’s problems. People should do that, so people know what needs to be changed. I am just offended by you comparing the US’s foreign policy, domestic policy & acheievements with Iraq’s without batting an eye is offensive.
Reading your examples, i again admit that the US isn’t perfect and again i never said we were. But how can you compare us to Iraq? Did Iraq invent the polio vaccine? Did iraq help set up war crimes tribunals in Rwanda? Did iraq help end ethnic cleansing in Yugoslavia? Did iraq help destroy Communism & Nazism? Does Iraq produce endless medical advancements that prevent billions from suffering? I just fail to see how you can compare the 2.
When Iraq fights 2 different dictatorial empires & wins, when it produces an endless amount of scientific technology regarding to medicine, agriculture, communications, etc, when its inhabitants enjoy a variety of civil, political & human rights, when its foreign policy helps just as much (probably more) than it hurts, then you can say Iraq is morally equal to the US.
your 3 examples.
I don’t personally feel example 1 is the same thing. A homeless person in america still has some access to food & medicine. bush himself only makes $200k a year, i know people who aren’t president who make more than that. That is a faaaar cry from people starving because they can’t afford 40 cents of wheat a day while the president steals billions. A faaaaaaaaaaaar cry. But yes, i don’t think the US does enough for its homeless (last time i looked the issue up).
True. I agree.
I am not 100% sure if that was the sole reason Iraq invaded. I think Saddam wanted to create a Pan Arab nation with himself at the helm and that was just as much the motivation. Anyway, the issue of justification isn’t really important here, i’m talking about moral equivalancy. Evenso, after Iraq invaded did it use $500,000 GPS guided missiles to avoid civilian targets? nope. Did it airdrop food & medicine to the Kuwaitis? nope. did/would the human rights, political rights & civil rights situation in Kuwait increase dramatically due to the Iraqi invasion? nope. Did Iraq try to avoid hitting hospitals, infrastructure or mosques? Did the iraqi government offer to leave after they set up an interm government?
Again, i am not saying the US is perfect. Far from it. Just yesterday (i think), the US turned away a plane filled with doctors & humanitarian aid from landing in Iraq due to bureaucratic incompetence. I think we’ve violated the Geneva convention a few times in this war also. All i’m saying is to say Iraq = US in regards to moral superiority shows severe bias.
And, again, the statment that 9/11 is tied into us screwing people over makes no sense. Why do all these terrorists come from the MENA region then? Why not south america, or S.E. asia, or russia, or china, or africa? Why do people in Honduras, the Phillipines or Vietnam like us while hte people of Kuwait hate us if this hate is due to fair reasons or meddling? Bin Ladin is more KKK member than Che Guevera and the main motive of his hate is the fact that his religious, racist ass couldn’t handle our infidel soldiers setting foot on Saudi arabia soil. This is no more ‘justified’ than the Klan killing a black person for setting foot in a white only park and i do not consider it fighting for justice or try to paint it as something its not. i dont’ know where this whole ‘hes fighting for humanity & justice’ stuff came from. He is an Arab Klansman as far as i can tell. his motivations are similar and his psych makeup are similar. If i’m wrong show me how.
Bullshit. Sounds like the same crap people used to say about the Japanese buying up America in the 80. The shieks and rulers own the wealth (oil). They are the ones who choose to deal with the corporations and bankers. They are also the ones who keep all the proceeds and drive around in the Mercedez and yachts.
Columbians didn’t fly into the World Trade Center.
Lets not pretend that Al Quada cares about the Central American people.
Afghanistan is the nation that supported, trained and harbored terrorists. The goal is to punish the terrorists and their supporters, not the countries where the terrorists claim nationality.
Unsubstantiated conspiracy-theory nonsense.
America is such a diverse society that to make such a blanket statement only shows your lack of intelligence and intollerance. Americans are, in fact, some of the most educated people on the planet. A significant number of highly educated Americans do travel to other countries for both work and leisure. I know Europeans like to pat themselves on the back for being so multinational but its easy when all your countries are the size of New York State.
Apparently, it is only ok to vilafy cutures when it’s America.
That still doesn’t explain why all these terrorists come from the middle east. Shouldn’t we be getting vietnamese terrorists? Why can’t some people admit that terrorists are just flat out xenophobic assholes and that their hate is their own problem? Do people try to figure out what black people have done to piss off the KKK? Why must this issue be the US’s fault? If it were the fault of our ‘meddling’, wouldn’t terrorists come from everywhere instead of just Saudi Arabia, Palestine & Afghanistan?
I think the real number is 7% who have passports, but only 10% of them use it (0.7% of the population).
First of all, I would like to commend you, Calculus, for your ability to formulate an argument. You are a valuable addition to the thread.
Please don’t be offended, Calculus. I’m not attacking you. I am challenging the assertion that the US is morally superior to Iraq. I ask you this: If the interests of the US are guilty of crimes that equal and exceed those of Iraq, is the US still morally superior? I would say “no.” If you total the aggregate of good deeds vs. bad deeds of the US and compare them to Iraq, I would be willing to concede that the US possibly has a better track record—possibly. I am not willing to make a call on that point because of the sheer volume of incidents and ambiguity of moral value involved. I would venture to say that the US has done more good than harm for planet Earth and I wouldn’t even hazard a guess regarding Iraq since all I have to go on is from the mass media.
Calculus, if you are willing to maintain that America is morally superior even if they have committed atrocities equaling those of Saddam, based on US contributions to humanity, then I have no argument with you on that point. The US has contributed much advancement.
My view is that if Joe deals drugs, than he has no right to berate Bill, the drug dealer, just because he makes annual contributions to some charity.
Here’s the holes in your argument: The poverty stricken in Iraq must still have some access to food as well if they are to live more than a month—which must be the case if there is all these poverty stricken folk in Iraq that we hear about. As for medicine, I don’t think a bum would have medical coverage unless I’m missing something.
Bush himself only makes $200k a year? Does that include the total salary package? I think if you tally up the travel and accommodation, it would extend the $200k a little. This all assumes that Bush is calling the shots in America, as opposed to those bankers and corporate owners that fund his election campaigns and hence really run the show. I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t like to compare the President’s bosses to Saddam in terms of income and lifestyle.
As for Saddam stealing billions, was it really billions? I am not contending this point; merely curious as to what this is based upon. I would say that the American federal government steals billions in income tax since I see income tax as a means to loot the American economy and live the high life off the backs of American workers. Just a point of view, eh.
Okay, so we’re talking about moral equivalency—would America have bothered with all the human aid etc. etc. if the light of the world’s media was shining directly on their actions in Iraq? Do you honestly think that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld give the slightest shit about the plight of the Iraqis; or do you think that perhaps it was all just political posturing? Either way an invasion is going to cost lives. Iraq did it. America did it. Lives were lost on both counts and both should be held accountable. Can America claim moral superiority because they carefully invaded another country? The civilian victims of misguided “smart” bombs would probably not say so.
All I’m saying is that the assertion that US has done no worse than Saddam shows severe ignorance.
Here’s how you’re wrong: The 169 terrorist attacks against America in 1999 were attributed to the following regions in the following proportions: Latin America accounted for 96; Eurasia for 9; Africa, 16; Mid East, 7; Asia, 6.
The statement that 9/11 was a result of America screwing people over makes no sense? Seems to me it correlates perfectly. Latin America gets screwed the most and retaliates the most. That some Saudis made a disproportionate impact on 9/11 only attest to their methods of attack. And all of this takes for granted that Bin Laden was behind 9/11 which is something too many have accepted without any proof beyond what Bush and co. “say” in their press releases and speeches.
As for the psych make-up garbage, please don’t enter a pseudo-science like psychiatry into this argument. What have you seen of Bin Laden that could give you even a vague impression of his personality? A few 30 second videos? Suffice to say that anyone that perpetrates terrorist attacks is psychotic—that includes any American interests that do so.
First of all, I would like to ridicule you, mssmith, for your inability to formulate an argument. You are a voice of mindlessness in the thread.
I guess you’re right, mssmith. The American oil companies don’t have any say in the situation. How stupid of me to think that America, being the largest consumer of oil in the world would carry any weight in the trade of oil. Thank-you for showing me the error of my ways. I now feel very sorry for the oil company owners that are living in the ghettos and driving old Buicks.
No shit?
The Sth American reference was an incidental issue used to back up my point; not to assert that 9/11 was meant to avenge them. Are you sure your on the right thread mssmith? Or are you just confused?
Yep, there you go. Punish them! Whip them! Strike them with force!
Forget addressing any issues at the root of the problem. Just play their game of revenge and perpetuate the age-old vicious circle that can only result in further retaliation, i.e. more 9/11s. Unless of course you are willing to go the whole hog and engage in wholesale genocide to completely eradicate the “problem.”
I guess the Iran-Contra scandal is unsubstantiated. I guess Waco is unsubstantiated.
Keep watching CNN, mssmith. You won’t find anything there that encroaches on your nice safe view of the world. Forget conspiracy! What about good old-fashioned corruption?
Ma’am, please leave any further debating to others. You haven’t been too successful in making any logical points.
Hey sorry if I don’t take the time to write a book report, but I do have a life outside of this board. I do not feel like spending an entire afternoon researching every one of your inane points in order to refute them (or at least point out how irrelevent they are to the argument).
I asked a few very simple questions in regards to some statements you made that you seem to take for granted as fact. Not surprisingly, you resort to ad-hominem attacks and personal insults. Your kind always do. Everyone else is naive or mindless or a tool of the establishment, right? How do you get your nearly omnipotent perspective on world events? And without even resorting to CNN, Fox News, the newspaper or any other traditional form of media we simple fools use to find out what’s going on in the world!
Let me just say that you entire argument is completely unsubstantiated opinon and rhetoric. Like all psuedo-intellectuals, you piece together conjecture and inneuendo to formulate some sort of bizarre nonsense that defies reality (or is a twisted version of reality that only you are “enlightened” to perceive.
Anyhow I have to go. I have to meet some people in the real world. Maybe tomorrow if I’m bored enough I’ll address your issues a little more thoroughly.
By the way my name is M Smith, not Ms Smith. Try to work on those reading skills.
Alright, Smith. We’ve both dealt out a serving of ad hominem attacks and personal insults and now that they have become the core of the interchange, we have diverged away from anything constructive or useful. Thanks. It’s been fun.
Yes sir, that’s correct. From what I understand, that war is simply yet another civil struggle for power. Does that mean that attacks on civilians don’t count as terrorism any more? Quoting the document that you provided the link to:
“In Colombia the number of attacks against U.S. targets, including bombings of commercial interests and an oil pipeline, rose to 91 in 1999.”
The “commercial interests” and “oil pipeline” have American corporate interests written all over them. That these interests are being attacked backs up my point that American big business is pissing a lot of people off abroad and fueling the fire that is terrorism.
nope, i disagree and i think you’re seeing what you want to see, that the US is an evil empire and the underdog is fighting against tyranny. I don’t see it that way. Columbia is in a civil war, so terrorism by drug lords is expected and the middle east’s hatred for us it based more on culture than anything we did to them.
I bumped this thread because i just found out that the Coalition found $656,000,000 hidden in Iraq. Combine that with the 1.5 billion the US froze from Iraq, and you have 2.2 billion dollars, and that is just the start.
What do yout hink the american government is going to do with that 2.2 billion dollars? Will we keep it for ourselves or give it to the Iraqi people, many of whom make $3 a month? How many other invading countries or governments, throughout the history of mankind, when finding 2.2 billion dollars would give it back to the people so they can have a better life? Would Saddam do that? The USSR?
I still don’t understand how you can say the US isn’t morally superior to the Iraqi government. The Iraqi gov. stole that money from the people now we are giving it back to them. Add that fact to a long list of reasons why.
That still doesn’t explain why all these terrorists come from the middle east. Shouldn’t we be getting vietnamese terrorists? Why can’t some people admit that terrorists are just flat out xenophobic assholes and that their hate is their own problem? Do people try to figure out what black people have done to piss off the KKK? Why must this issue be the US’s fault? If it were the fault of our ‘meddling’, wouldn’t terrorists come from everywhere instead of just Saudi Arabia, Palestine & Afghanistan?