9/11 why us?

[lander2k2]

*Originally posted by The Calculus of Logic *
**nope, i disagree and i think you’re seeing what you want to see, that the US is an evil empire and the underdog is fighting against tyranny. I don’t see it that way. Columbia is in a civil war, so terrorism by drug lords is expected and the middle east’s hatred for us it based more on culture than anything we did to them.

**

I could retort that you are trying not to see what is there, but that remark would be as meaningless as yours. Instead I’ll just point out specific things that I see as relevant. I love it when people string together chains of logic that don’t show any logical connection, like: “there is a civil war so terrorism is expected.” I don’t know if this is some mindless line that some official fed to the press but it just doesn’t follow logically. In a civil war two parties or forces battle with one another for control of a nation. Why would terrorism directed at another nation altogether be inherent in civil war? Terrorism is, however, what you would expect of a group fighting against a much stronger power that they know they are unable to challenge in outright warfare.

As for your attempts to assert what I see (“that the US is an evil empire…”), I could assume that you just misunderstand where I’m coming from, but since I’ve been over it at length, I know that you do know better. I can therefore only assume that you are resorting to twisting my views into something irrational as opposed to finding any logical premise to challenge it. To restate my view: The American political system, because it inherently fosters corruption, consists largely of representatives that have been corrupted to some degree. The elected representatives are corrupted by the extremely wealthy and essentially owned and run by the election campaign contributors. This inevitably breeds actions that understandably lead to America being perceived as an “Evil Empire” but in fact it is the smallest minority that are evil or corrupt that are in positions of influence. America at large consists primarily of benevolent and productive people. If only they were in the Whitehouse.

**I bumped this thread because i just found out that the Coalition found $656,000,000 hidden in Iraq. Combine that with the 1.5 billion the US froze from Iraq, and you have 2.2 billion dollars, and that is just the start.

What do yout hink the american government is going to do with that 2.2 billion dollars? Will we keep it for ourselves or give it to the Iraqi people, many of whom make $3 a month? How many other invading countries or governments, throughout the history of mankind, when finding 2.2 billion dollars would give it back to the people so they can have a better life? Would Saddam do that? The USSR? **

Before I comment any further on this how about you demonstrate that this money is actually being doled out to the people. I’m not necessarily contesting the fact but I’m not going to debate something that I haven’t seen happen. If you can link a press photo of all that cash being handed out or something, let me know. Until then I can only assume that it is more empty PR drivel designed to garner unqualified support for this foolishness in Iraq.

**I still don’t understand how you can say the US isn’t morally superior to the Iraqi government. The Iraqi gov. stole that money from the people now we are giving it back to them. Add that fact to a long list of reasons why. **

I will one more time explain my stance that the American government cannot claim moral superiority over Iraq’s ex-regime. Here’s a dictionary definition of morals: moral: [pl.] principles, standards, or habits with respect to right or wrong in conduct; ethics; sometimes, specif., standards of sexual behavior. IMHO if one person/state does something which transgresses the boundary of right and does something wrong, then that person or state has no claim to moral superiority over another who commits an equally wrong act. Forgetting anything else that the US government has done over the years that could be cited as wrong, just the simple fact that the US supported and condoned Iraq’s policies and atrocities over the years, right up to and including the invasion of Kuwait, makes my point. Saddam and America were allies for the longest time. Do you think the CIA wasn’t aware of what Saddam got up to?

Yes America has produced much advancement for mankind. This is a credit to American industry. These advancements were made by Americans with drive and vision and were made in spite of a government that rarely has the interests of the greater population at heart.

Getting back to the subject of the thread, “9/11 why us,” the notion that America was attacked because of cultural differences is the type of childish mung that Bush has pushed because it does not require any review of action on the part of his administration; it does not require him to bite the bullet and see how he needs to change how he runs the nation. But I doubt that I will change your mind on the issue. It is your own responsibility to search beyond Whitehouse press conferences and CNN for what might be going on in the world around you.

[Magiver]

To answer the question of why Arabs hate the US you have to look at quit a few factors.

Muslims have a historical (and quit visceral) hatred of Jews. The United States is hated by proxy because of Israeli support. The mechanism of hate can be traced to Muslim clerics. I have seen many Islamic prayer services include the words “death to America, death to Israel” (unless the translators are lying). If it weren’t for these clerics, the average Muslim wouldn’t be able to find the United States on a map. To put it in perspective, I have never heard a Christian minister demand the death of another nation. It would be unthinkable.

The universal hatred of Jews is a difficult problem to address because there is a very flat hierarchy in the Islamic religion. There are no Popes or Archbishops to direct the flocks. Without a top-town power structure, there is no mechanism for change in any ONE direction. It would take an Islamic version of Martin Luther to make such a profound change in power. And his/her life expectancy would be measured in minutes.

I’m not an Anthropologist but I would compare modern Arab/Muslim nations to the feudal period of Europe. Power is held on a local level and the binding force is religioun. Non-Arab/Muslim nations, such as Malaysia, have advanced socially beyond feudal law but religion is still a ruling force.

Within virtually every Mid-East Muslim nation, there are many distinct religious and cultural factions at war with each other. Kurds, Arabs, Persians, Pushtuns etc… You can see it broken down to the level of small towns. It is made worse by the tools of Islam, ie Sharia Law. You literally have a religious leader, with no formal training or accreditation, presiding over life-and-death trials.

Obviously, it is more complex than what I have stated but 9/11 is less abstract. It started well before Afghanistan but I’ll start there to shorten things up. We supported the Mujahideen in Afghanistan (via the CIA) in a successful drive to remove the Russian installed government. This event would have been independent of the Persian Gulf War except for the common denominator of Bin Laden. When Iraq threatened Kuwait, Saudi Arabia was approached by Bin Laden who planned to stop Saddam Hussein. He was rejected in favor of the US lead coalition. Bush Senior was given UN charter to take the war to Baghdad if necessary but the Saudis did not want this. The Saudis were also paying for a large amount of the war so it was influential in the decision process. The final event that determined the war’s outcome was the “road of death” leading out of Kuwait. The Iraqis were taking such a horrendous beating that it was decided to end the war for public relations purposes. This left Saddam in power and the United States ended up establishing a permanent force on Saudi soil. This was looked upon by Bin Laden as the final insult. His interviews prior to 9/11 were quit clear. The US was defiling “sacred Islamic soil” by its presence and civilians were fair game in his self proclaimed holy war. Al Quada was activated and then funded by Saudi Muslims ( Wahabis) through the use of the Islamic pillar of charity. Talibans (religious schools) were created in large numbers in Afghanistan. The rest is history.
IMO, Bush was between a rock and a hard place BEFORE 9/11. The event was in the pipeline going back to the first Gulf War. The first attack on the WTC was in the early 90’s and it was known then that they had originally intended to crash planes into the buildings. It was deemed too difficult at the time. The French even foiled an attempt to do the same thing to the Eiffel Tower.

If anyone bothered to listen to President Bush, he stated many times that this was a LONG, involved process that reaches way beyond Afghanistan and Iraq. I believe him because President Clinton made a very cryptic speech about a month before he left office. In it he stated that terrorism would be the # 1 problem facing the United States. At the time, this made the hair stand up on the back of my. This was something completely off the radar of the average American to even mention in a speech. I expect the next 10 years to bring much tumult to humanity, regardless of the direction taken now.

.

[rjung]

*Originally posted by Magiver *
Muslims have a historical (and quit visceral) hatred of Jews.

Really? Last time I checked, historically Islam has been relatively friendly towards Jews and Christians, treating them as fellow followers of The Book. It’s only been the last several hundred years or so (out of Islam’s thousand-plus-year-history) that there’s been the big Judiasm-Islam bruhaha, and most of that is less about Judiasm in general and Israel in particular. The only time I ever hear the “Muslems have always hated Jews” line is from biased folks who are light on facts and heavy on the Islam-bashing (Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson come to mind).

Do you have any reliable cites that “Muslems have a historical hatred of Jews”?

[Estilicon]

Magiver, in fact a few centuries ago Jews ran for their lives out of England, France, Germany and found peace and freedom in muslim spain (until the Catholic kings expelled them). Check your history.