In my search to find a martial art to take up, I have heard (from the Brazilian Jujitsu people) that the reason I should take their art (or one like it), is because 95% of all fights end up on the ground. I have also heard this quote from an Ultimate Fighting fighter on TV the other night, and from an Army ranger who described what kind of martial arts his people went through. My question is this: Where did this statistic come from (I imagine one of the Gracies), how big was the sample-size, what was it based on (bar fights, street fights, ring fights), etc. Or is it all just one big marketing ploy proving that 86% of all statistics are wrong (kidding)?
I don’t know where the statistics came from but I can tell you that you’d do well to take a grappling style of martial art. If you ever watch any of the UFCs you’ll see it takes a combination of pummeling/grappelling to do well.
Way back when I learned how to pummell but I know damn well that I better avoid being taken to the ground. Fortunately for me I don’t look look like easy pickins so I’ve avoided violence thus far*.
*With the exception of the ‘fishbelly’ incident, but that was just plain stupidity on my part and embarassing
I’d be surprised if that stat is an actually researched number. I suspect it is more of an anecdotal/personal observation type ‘stat’. Certainly very few boxing matches ever endup on the ground so right there you’ve thrown out a bunch of ring fights (you might be saying, “Well duh!!!” but as already noted exactly what fights do or don’t count for this?).
As a personal opinion I certainly feel as a practical matter that any martial art taken for the purposes of self defense should include grappling/joint manipulation maneuvers. Of course, if you are a Tae Kwan Do master you might figure that no one will ever be able to take you to the ground in the first place and you’d probably be right 99% of the time for a typical street fight. Nevertheless, a good martial art should cover all aspects of fighting to at least some degree as you never know what situation you might find yourself in.
However, the Brazilian Jujitsu people by no means have a lock on fighting on the ground. Aikido is at least one other martial art that pops to mind that has good on the ground techniques (or at least so I’ve heard…I might be confusing it with Hapkido). Also, just as ground fighting techniques should be taught so too should upright fighting be taught. If Brazilian Jujitsu is heavily weighted towards fighting on the ground you likewise might find yourself at a disadvantage against a competent upright fighter.
All of that said realize that a competent martial artist is going to be able to kick the ass of most people they run across no matter what art he or she is trained in. Your problems with being a a very specific art only lie in meeting the rare person who is also a martial artist and either picking a fight with them or stepping into a ring with one.
I heard a similar statistic when I took Judo, it was with respect to street fights, and I’m sure it is just “experience” and probably exaggerated. The idea was that if you did not have ground fighting techniques, you HAD to take your opponent out with the first punch or kick. Once the first shot is done, most fights wind up in a grappling match, and many striking / kicking techniques are much less effective.
Even if you are an expert standup fighter, there is still no guarantee that a punch or kick will disable your opponent. That single technique could go wrong, then you are in deep trouble. When you are grappling, it is much more like a chess match, move and countermove, slowly gaining dominance over your opponent. Your skill in grappling techniques would be valuable at the end of the fight, when they are most needed.
Of course, there was the opposite statement “100% of fights BEGIN while standing up.” which has it’s own charm.
For the most part, training in martial arts is wonderful for discipline, conditioning, reflex/strength training and confidence building. But very few martial arts train you for what is really going to happen. If they are good, they train you to either run away or, failing that, to win before the fight starts.
As far as the statistic that 95% of fights end up on the ground goes, arrests that turn to fights usually do, at least for the suspect. You need to put him down and subdue him as quickly as possible. Bar fights usually end rather quickly as do street fights. Ring fights don’t count. Professional fighters are not part of this kind of statistic.
The word ‘fight’ implies the possibility of more than one outcome but, since people will willingly knock you down and kick you to death, I agree with Alessan.
I have known especially gifted martial artists who could successfully take on two people at once, but I have also known short, scrawny little brawlers with no training at all who never lost a fight. The best fighter I knew was a kid in the Marine Corps with me who was a high school wrestling champion. I studied jujutsu for years but the best martial art I ever learned was how to use pepper spray.
That 95% sounds about right to me. most “real” fights are spontaneous and it’s fairly hard to build a protocol in advance for the “experiment” when some jerk is trying make moves on your girl and thinks that he can put you down just because he has some 300 lb. retard friend with broken teeth behind him. (Observation IS genuine research. I think that it’s called “Convenience Sampling”) In any of the fights in which I have seen/been involved etc…it hardly ever has a chance to get oriental (Ha! I break me up!) at any rate, the ground fighting/grappling seems like the best bet. Watching the first 1-4 vids of the UFC championship (number 5 on seem to be just a bunch of grapplers without any of the fun stuff, but the first 4 are interesting) even with all of the many disciplines represented, Gracie took just about all of the final prizes. And all of the winners either punched the crap out of their opponent or won on the joint lock/groundfighting thing. I didn’t see one flying kick, no roundhouses no whozits no Kwai Chiang Caine roll/flip/spins etc…Many of the problems of the other kinds of the martial arts (i.e., striking/kicking) are that they are impractical as presented by most instructors. Too many karate black belts are awarded without even a full contact match. one would have to be really, really, really conditioned (as in Pavlovian) to react reflexively with the right moves in a real fight-which isn’t going to be the case unless you are remarkably dedicated and have the luxury of the time required for the training. And the partners with which to train. Few instructors will tell you all of this, and, if you haven’t been in a fight situation you may be lulled into a false sense of security with the fancy moves and stretches that you can perform. Naturally, a REAL master of ANY martial art will kick the crap out of even the largest and strongest oaf, but my suspicion is that there are only about 2 or 3 REAL masters of anything in the whole world. My personal observation is that punching and grappling are the disciplines which seem to have the best effect when practiced by the dilettante, and would be the easiest to learn. (of course, a good scrotum kick will usually carry the day!)
Whack-a-mole-Aikido is a throwing art mainly with no attacks (unless you consider breaking someone’s wrist an attack)
OT- has anyone else noticed that black belt is analagous with ‘computer expert’ i.e. it doesn’t mean the person can defend themselves just that they know the moves.
As for the original question the four or five fights i have been were determined standing up. A few punches were thrown and then it was grappling while standing up
UFC is not a valid representation for what happens in a fight. I’ve been saying this for years, and so few people get me…
UFC has rules, a fight on the street/bar/whatever does not.
And of course a BJJ school is going to tell you that fights end up on the ground. They want your money. And they will teach you how to fight on the ground… but it won’t help if you come up against a guy who doesn’t want to go to the ground, and if he’s stronger than you… well… good luck.
A decent martial art should teach you to punch, and kick effectively. Sure, back when I was training 6-8 hours a week I could snap a board that was held even with the top of my head… but the one time I kicked someone in a violent confrontation, I kicked him in the abdomen and then bolted from the scene.
– There is NO NEED to kick higher than your opponents waist.
– There is NO NEED to know how to do “death grips” if you’re not taught how to do them against someone who is resisting.
Learn how to punch, learn how to kick. Anything else is gravy!
Being proficient in a Martial Art can have serious negative connotations in your social life, especially if people know about it.
I have a friend who is a Black Belt in Karate. He is pretty shy, retiring kind of guy, keeps out of any trouble. Thing is, people know he is good, so gangs ‘pick’ on him for fun. He is basically incapable of defending himself but any other means other than running, as if he hits back he is the one is serious legal trouble due to the training he has undertaken being classified as ‘a deadly weapon’. He could kill with single punch if he lost control, so can never afford to.
Any fight training will work negatively against you if picked up in a street fight. Best to be good, but never grade, if you even suspect you will even be involved in brawls. (IMHO)
It depends on the type of fight (and unfortunately I’ve got a lot of experience). In a one on one fight you will usually end up on the ground. THis is not even by choice, its hard to keep your balance when you’re throwing around a 14 stone man.
Think of all “spontaneous” fights between highly trained boxers. They ALWAYS end up as grapples on the ground. If you punch someone on the head you will break your hand.
In my opinion the best martial art is Judo (or similar). If you use your head (in both senses) with Judo you’ll win most bouts.
Ironically in the other type of fight ie a melee the one thing you don’t want to do is go down, where you will be kicked by others, so boxing has its uses here.
Karate just makes people laugh, it’s useless. (Known dismissively in English footy fighting circles as jap-slap-crap)
OST- I’ll put my instructor up against any Footy inthusiast you care to bring to the party.
Ano- Tell your friend that if he states, clearly and with no mistake, that he is trained to fight, and will defend himself to the best of his ability if he feels threatened to said gangs, he will be safe. Even so, I commend his actions. Smart man!
I have seen it happen time and time again, wannabe heroes get all hong-kong-phooey or Bruce lee with genuine tough guys, there’s a brief blur and then there’s blood and snot all over the carpet. Exit stage right severly disillusioned “martial art” enthusiast.
There is a huge difference between trained and tough. All the training in the world doesn’t make you able to win fights if you haven’t got the aggression, will to win and pain barrier to back it up.
For instance, when Mike Tyson came to fight in London I saw him in public, and I am certain that Tyson, a formidably trained fighter with great reserves of aggression etc, was not the toughest or hardest member of his entourage. (Nb I wouldn’t fight him though!)
Learn to lead with your head and you’ll do alright.
All the training in the world won’t prepare you to take a punch that you don’t see coming. Once a 200lb guy clubs a 100lb guy in the head with his big fist his training is gonna go into the void that is known as “Knocked the f**k out”.
The only thing that can prepare you for the pain of taking a solid punch to the face or gut, is to take some punches to the face or gut. And who wants to do that?
See OST, that’s the problem. The guys that drop into “stances” and make little Bruce Lee noises are of no concern.
It’s the little old guy walking along with a cane.
the quiet kid, who seems to never stub his toes or drop things in class.
The young lady who habitually picks out her pants and clothes so that they are light and have give… in the off chance she needs to kick someone or somesuch.
the world is full of Martial Arts students who think they know what they’re doing.
And damn few true artists. I was fortunate enough to start my learning from an Artist (though he would deny it).
I am a student… whether or not I’m an artist or even can be, has yet to be determined.
This sounds like a load of bunk to me. First off, under what jurisdiction are his hands “registered” as lethal weapons? I believe there was a thread on this topic, but cannot find it. The consensus, IIRC, was that there is no such thing as registering a martial artist as a lethal weapon.
Second, if his skills are so great that even he cannot control them, then he is not truly skilled at all. Proper training allows a person to use the skills in the manner desired, not randomly. I’m so powerful I might “accidentally” use a killing technique? I can kill with a single punch, so I can’t ever punch someone? :rolleyes:
Sounds like someone who is afraid of getting his butt kicked so he comes up with this nonsense to justify his running away.
Or the old blind chinese guy, or grasshopper with the burn scars or Native American Steven Segal (“fights like a girl” in his native tongue)
Ho and furthermore hum.
Karate is a sport, like fencing. It will make you fit, strong and possibly (and erroneously) confident. However in terms of winning a proper knock-down street fight you might as well be an olympic standard pillow fighter.
It is important to understand the forces involved in a fight. In my experience these are Lager, Whizz and charlie.
Nah, sometimes I push my bed out on the sidewalk and taunt people until I get attacked. Fun on the weekends.
Um, yeah. Anyway, my 2¢ is that a Judo/Jujitsu based approach is best. If you know what you are doing, you can always take someone down to the ground where the advantage becomes yours. Once an untrained person is on the ground there are many exposed joints to go after, and (again, if you know what you are doing) manipulating any one of these joints correctly should end a fight.