95% of All Fights

Factual Questions
21

I once read an article that made a good case for the notion that the “soft” arts (Tai Chi and Aikido were given as examples) had the great advantage of teaching one how to NOT get hit. This is not in the boxing or karate style of blocking a blow, but of redirecting it and/or not being there when it would land.

I studied Aikido and believe it has a lot to offer to those who embrace its style. Many of its techniques give one the option of deflecting, throwing, or pinning the attacker. A good throw that heads one towards a wall or sidewalk could be quite effective. Nevertheless, I would not suggest Aikido as the most efficient course of study for street fighting.

I recall reading that Cassius Clay/Muhammed Ali devoted a fair portion of his training to taking blows. As I’ve heard of people losing their concentration and forgetting their training from just receiving a slap, it makes sense to me.

I find it quite believable that a majority of those who have had some formalized training can be often overcome by those who have learned from “real-world” situations. Sorta like book-learnin’ vs. experience–organized study often doesn’t really gel until it’s been applied to practical problems.

22

I never said his hands were ‘registered’, only that they can be percieved to be, due to his training. He is always at a disadvantage legally due to the fact ‘he should know better’ than to get involved. This is in the UK, BTW.
And I never said he went about boasting about his skills (he never would). What I wrote was my interpretation of the situation, as I see it. And he has ended up in court in defense of assault charges where he was attacked and successfully defended himself.
He ‘come up’ with none of this nonsense (if anyone did, it was me), but I think you can always justify running away. It’s never a bad option.

Are you always this quick to judge and condemn?

23

“Karate just makes people laugh, it’s useless. (Known dismissively in English footy fighting circles as jap-slap-crap)”

“Karate is a sport, like fencing. It will make you fit, strong and possibly (and erroneously) confident. However in terms of winning a proper knock-down street fight you might as well be an olympic standard pillow fighter.”

OST - My “useless” skills seem to have served me well in many a fight but then maybe you are referring to those people who actually practice Karate as more of a sport, as a way to keep fit, and who have never really hit anyone or been hit.

My own studies and teaching of students was never like that. As much as one must know how to give it is just as important to know how to receive. I had a wonderful Sensei who taught both formal Karate techniques and real world fighting methods. I would often leave class feeling like I had been in a knock down drag out fight which is how many classes went.

The one thing that many martial arts students fail to realize is that there is a great difference between practicing in the Dojo and real fighting, the kind where some other persons intent is to inflict grievous harm on one’s person.

In my experience most of the fights I have been involved in have been extremely brief with much giving done on my part. I have the ability to convince people that continuing to fight with me really isn’t in their best interest, when you’re lying on the floor in extreme amounts of pain it gives you time to ponder these things.

I have had people hit me (first) and the fact their best shot didn’t even cause me to flinch has often been enough to change their minds. One chap accidentally speared me with a pool cue (I wasn’t his intended target) and I merely told him to give me the stick before I got pissed off. He was smart enough to give me the stick.

On another note, I used to cross train with other teachers and students from other disciplines, if we limited the sparring to punches and kicks the Judo guys took an ass whupping whereas they had a definate advantage when it came to holds and throws, if they could get their hands on you. :slight_smile: So I learned both.

maybesomeone - If you’re going to learn how to fight well you need to learn everything you can regarding striking, blocking, deflecting, and grappling. You never know what direction a fight will take as there are countless variables involved. No single martial art is superior to another and you should not limit yourself to a single discipline. If you can take someone out from a standing position that’s great but be prepared to find yourself in a less than upright position and learn the skills that will get you out in one piece. OST gave one good piece of advice… use your head.

24

sorry FEYNN but I dont read it as you do.

I will happily accept that any training is better than none, and will always help the person with the training (with the caveat that follows).

However I suspect that you may have come against bar room cream puffs rather than genuine tough chaps. Anyone can take them down (I made a career out of it).

I appreciate that there is a diffrerence between the sporting karate user (player?) and some one who can have a fight using some (and surely only some) of the techniques.

The point I was trying to make (born out of long experience) is that training per se makes very little difference if i tisnt backed up by the will to win.

In my experience most karate people fold when you hit them hard the first time.

Not because the trainings rubbish its just that they’ve never been properly hit and are intimidated out of going farther ,instantly.

one thing we would surely agree on is that 95% of fights are won with the head ( in both senses).

But I’d take my chances with a karate bloke before any other martial art.

Sorry but I think it’s cods

25

Not usually, but the way you presented the situation sounded very much like how a person might brag about himself. “I’m a lethal weapon” “I can kill by accident” and so forth. Since that was merely your interpretation of your friend’s experiences, I apologize and withdraw my unkinder comments.

I just have a bit of a hard problem when people boast excessively about martial arts. They are not mystical or magical, they are systems of fighting, nothing more.

As an aside, running away from a fight is often the best option, especially when you are pitted against a group. There is no shame in that, but making a silly excuse (as I thought your friend did) is not the way to go.

26

On the subject of “lethal hands”; in the UK it’s cobblers.

Where would you stop?

I know (through football) some very handy blokes. They’re not formally trained and could wipe the floor with any “black belt” (see my comments above).

Are they to be"registered"?

The only law is that you are only alllowed to use “minimum force” to defend yourself. It doesn’t matter if that is a system developed by chinese monks or a glasgow kiss. It’s the force that matters not the method of delivery.

27

WRT Karate vs other martial arts, I have taken both Judo and Karate (very little Karate) One of the problems with the Karate class I took was that it had very little contact. This will vary greatly with the dojo, I’m sure, the dojo I was at avoided full contact. Arts that focus on striking techniques can have trouble including full contact sparring, it is very easy to get injured. Grappling arts allow the student to practice at full speed without the same injury potential.

In neither case does the student experience much in the way of getting hit, so that could always be a problem. I preferred Judo because I at least got the feel of a full out grappling fight during the sparring sessions.

28

Exactly CHEESESTEAK old chap!

These jap-slappers are living in a fools paradise. It wouldn’t matter in the least if it didn’t give them unrealistic levels of confidence, which will get them hurt in the real world.

Come down to White Hart Lane (or The Den or Ninnian park etc) and try it out .
Cue hundreds of war stories from the pyjama boys about fights they had when they were students…

29

I wouldn’t say grappling is the only thing you should know. It’s definitely an essential part of a well-rounded self defense though.

There’s several situations where grappling or trying to take someone to the ground is a bad idea:

  1. Multiple attackers: While you’re on the ground strangling your opponent, his friends will come over and kick you in the head, hit you with bricks/bottles. You lose.

  2. Hard surfaces: Try taking someone down on a hard wood floor or concrete. It’s not pleasant. Lets also not forget there could be broken glass or other hazards on the ground that aren’t pleasant.

  3. No rules: Even in the UFC “no rules” tournaments, you’re not going to see eye gouging, nut squeezing, or biting. Getting close to someone gives them the opportunity to do any/all of these. If you grab me in a lock, I will use whatever is free to cause you as much pain as possible.

A good idea is having several options in a fight, and being able to choose the most effective response. Don’t force yourself into one way of doing things.

Remember also, that if a Karate fighter loses to a BJJ fighter, that only proves that one fighter was better than the other, not that one style was better than the other.

30

I’ve been training MA for about 5 years, and have sparred regularly with folks from a variety of styles, so here’s my thoughts and opinions…

c_goat’s reply above is exactly right.

Grappling techniques are wonderful additions to your “tool box” of self defense techniques, but they are only effective in certain specific times. At other times, they are careless and dangerous. This is common sense that goes for any technique, be it a kick, punch, hold, throw, takedown, whatever.

Just because I study and love Shaolin kung fu does mean that all I do is roll and flip and twirl. I also willingly go to the ground (gasp!) if the opportunity is beneficial.

BJJ’s great success has been mostly because of hard-sell marketing. The “95 percent” statistic is simply a sales pitch to entice the uninformed into believing the claims of BJJ’s superiority. This is not meant to disparage the art in any way, it is a fantastic discipline and very effective, but the holy grail of technique it is not (no single martial art is ultimately superior).

I’ve sparred 120lb women that have cleaned the floor with me by avoiding getting hit or grappled or in a situation where I could use my size and strength. I have beaten men much larger and stronger than myself in the same way (including ranked BJJ-ers) who were intent on only closing the gap and grappling. The opposite is also true, I have had my clock cleaned by white belts while effortlessly beating black belts of the same art.

It simply boils down to the effort and training that the individual has put into their art. Flexibility and adaptation will always ultimately win over ritualistic dogma or blind faith (something BJJ-ers or UFC-cheerleaders often overlook in their marketing-hype and stylistic brainwashing).

The UFC is a sport whose rules are specifically designed to protect the athletes from the serious damage that can result from many strikes. No elbows, no neck strikes, no eyes, no groin, no joints. Obviously, if you take the tool box of strikes away and reduce it to simple punches to non-critical targets, then any fighter with half a brain will choose to train and pursue a grappling strategy.

31

Martial art fighting is skilled but too clean, street fighting is usually not skilled but can get dirty. But if a martial arts master fights dirty… he can kick some serious ass. (Just imagine a Kempo master doing a kick to the opponents knees, then a quick jab to the guys thoat/temple/nosem followed by some eye gouging, and groin kicking). Fight will be over in an instant… no need to go to the floor.

32

OST- I respect what you’re trying to say, and I think we breezed right past each other.

Example- my brother trained just as long as I did, under the same instructors. He is taller than me, and stronger. However, the last few times we wrestled/fought, I won hands down.

My friend (big phillipino ex-gangbanger) has been in plenty of fights, and the few times we wrestled around, there was no clear winner. He bloodied my nose and I cracked his ribs and sprained his wrist.

However, the majority of MA students are not fighters. MA as it is taught in the US (and in the UK, AFAIK) cannot teach you how to fight.

But every once in awhile, you come across the real deal. It’s rare, but it happens. My instructor did 8 months in county lock-up a few years ago, and he had no problems. He applied what he knew, and managed to get in no serious fights at all… which is good for him, as he got out of jail months ahead of schedule.

Now, there are arts out there that purport to teach combat, and fighting. One of my arts instructors used to teach (still teaches?) hand to hand combat at West Point. Master Sims… an impressive man, and he is teaching combat… hehehe

But yes, OST, you are right. Will is more important than any amount of training. But do not blow off skill or training out of hand… that is dangerous.

33

TRISTAN I think we are in broad agreement. Any training is better than none.

However a wendy with a black is still a wendy and a lairy so and so without one will beat him. However a lairy sod with black belt training would be formidable.

On the subject of unarmed combat I would point you in the direction of Andy McNabs “ground zero” McNab is an ex SAS Sergeant and described the training they were given (and they don’t come harder than these chaps)

The training they were given was on the lines of what I am recommending. Butt; bite; kick gouge etc. At no time were they taught karate type moves.

Mind you this would have been on top of the standard army training that they would already have had.

34

After a football match once, while stuck in traffic, I had the misfortune of witnessing a nasty fight in an alley parallel to the road. I have no idea how “trained” the guys involved were, but based on what I saw I would have to agree with owl and Cheesesteak that karate training is no substitute for power and viciousness in the street.

Basically, I didn’t see what started it all off, but there was a long period of confrontation and insults, before one average sized guy who seemed to be being built up by his friends as a black belt, adopted the stances and challenged a huge skin head with arms the size of my legs. The karate guy got in a couple of quick punches and looked pretty impressive… right up to the point the huge guy lost patience, charged him in an un-pretty way, and they both smacked into a wall and ended up on the floor with the huge guy on top, battering him about the head. The karate guy didn’t look in a good way by the time four policemen showed up a minute later. The police made a fairly convincing argument for “swinging batons wildly” though.

Anyway, it obviously depends on the individuals, but this guy had all the pretty moves but still lost out to plain dirty.

35

Couple things.

There is one immutable law about fighting. If you really want to learn how to fight, you must fight (or seriously spar). You must know what it’s like to fight with adrenalin rushing and the fear of actually being hit. Until you do this training is academic (as self defense.)

I agree with Tristan that the UFC does not approximate a real fight. Those fighters start yards apart which is ideal for a BJJ’er because so much of it’s techniquie is maintaining distance until YOU’RE ready to close it. There is also room on the floor for two men to lay down on their backs and still maneuver which is also critical for BJJ. Bars often don’t have this.

One of the benefits of BJJ however is that you can approximate a real fight just a little better because it’s a submission sport. This doesn’t mean that your opponent will be using it though.

It’s always nice to have the option of submission. I think a good combination is to learn street fighting (Get a Paul Vunak video and practice.), a submission art (BJJ), Escrima (Stick Fighting), and some basic American Boxing.

36

The advantage of BJJ is that they have a plan (go to the ground) and lots of practice fighting in positions where the striking arts have little or no experience (on the ground).

More often than not, grapplers beat strikers. The initial advantage of the the striker disappears once the first clinch occurs. At that point, the better grappler has the advantage, and BJJ fighters spend almost all their time practicing being the better grapplers.

The 95% figure is probably a WAG as well as a marketing tool. As the history of the first few UFCs indicates, it is not necessarily very far off the mark. The Gracies cleaned house for quite a while, before everybody else started practicing specifically to combat their tactics. They still do OK in MMA competitions. In the average street fight, they would tend to have the same advantage as they did when Royce Gracie first showed the basic double leg-pick–>guard–>mount–>submit sequence that he practiced for years.

The objection that BJJ is no good against multiple attackers is sort of besides the point. As the Gracies say, “If you can’t stop one guy from taking you down, how are you going to stop three guys from doing the same?” Same as for objections that street fights don’t happen on a mat, but on hard floors. So how does that change the odds of a take-down?

OK, I’m biased, as I have practiced grappling arts for years. FWIW.

Regards,
Shodan

37

I wonder at the dismissal that is being given to strikers. I think part of the problem might lie in the mindset most people approach a typical brawl in. Usually such fights aren’t considered to the death and meant more to just pummel some people senseless. From this perspective I could see how a grappler might have the better (or more appropriate) training.

However, if the striker you are facing (you being a grappler for the sake of argument) is intent on killing you or at least doing any and all damage he/she can as fast as possible I wonder what chance the grappler really has. I had very little martial arts training so I’m certainly not an expert but I do remember that my training generally went along the lines that your first hit should be your last hit. It wasn’t random punching but rather each and every blow was designed to be incapacitating. Further, that incapacitation did not rely on strength (the power of the blow) to inflict the damage but rather precisely targeted locations that even a little guy could achieve against a big guy. Assuming we have a competently trained striker on our hands facing a similarly competent grappler I don’t see how the grappler is going to get the striker to the ground before the striker inflicts some disabling injury on the grappler (again, assume our two fighters here are genuinely looking to destroy the other one and not just have a ‘peaceful’ ring match).

Am I missing something?

38

If the grappler has enough training to avoid being incapacitated before the clinch, then he will have the advantage. As the striker, you MUST incapacitate early and cannot get into a grappling match.

I think it is very reasonable to think that a skilled fighter can avoid being knocked out with the first strike or two. If the striker misses his early chance, he’s a goner, because the grappler won’t let him go. It is much harder to turn a grappling match into a striking match, that is where the grappler’s advantage lies.

39

The grappler has an advantage in a clean fight. In a dirty fight, when a grappler is going for a clinch, you just have to eye gouge or hook your fingers into his nose. Of course the grappler may do the same. You can bite too…

Another way to fight a grappler… go for his neck… I believe this is illegal in competitions, but it is quite effective.

40

Yes. Adrenalin.

There are very few blows that are “incapcaitating” if someone is seriously fired up.

THrow in coke, whizz and/or alcohol, and especially crack and you’re looking at some one you’re unlikely to knowck down with your hands.

You could do it with your head but you have to be in range.

Poking an eye out would do it, but that’s not very nice now is it.