A skilled grappler knows the points a skilled striker would go for and takes this into account when closing the distance and taking down.
Watch how Royce Gracie closed the distance in UFC matches. His legs are always positioned to avoid a groin shot, his head is down and he shoots low.
Not every incapacitating blow means a knockout. Additionally, many incapacitating blows do not rely on shock alone to turn the other guy off. Many are simple physics/biology. Properly done I don’t think it matters how fired-up a person is to turn them off like a light. Some of the strike points I remember are:
[ul]
[li] Just below the nose (supposedly disrupts blood flow to the head and will render a person unconscious and may kill them)[/li][li] Upper shot to the nose breaking the nose and maybe sending bone shards into the brain (not sure how reliable this is)[/li][li] Just above and behind an ear (you can feel a little dent there…supposedly will switch someone off like a light)[/li][li] Adams Apple (crush it and you won’t be breathing for long)[/li][li] Back corner of the jaw (maybe this isn’t incapacitating but you’ll have to have your stuff wired tight to continue fighting with your jaw hanging around your neck)[/li][li] Blow out a knee[/li][li] Floating rib (break the rib and potentially puncture a lung…this also may be possible to fight through)[/li][/ul]
Certainly between our striker and grappler the grappler will be doing what he can to avoid getting hit in this fashion but so too will the striker try and avoid a takedown. Assuming equivalently trained people it may be a toss-up as to who gets lucky first. Still, I think a striker can do plenty of damage in one hit to stop just about anybody if the blow lands in the desired spot (for the striker) and he is trying to do as much damage as possible up to and including killing the other person.
Yeah, some guys are TOUGH! No, really TOUGH! The movie versions of fights where a hit knocks someone out or seriously damages them is bunk. The human body is fairly resiliant(sp?), and some people have incredibly high thresholds for pain. Sure, afterwards they might have to sit down or go to the hospital or ??? But at the time of the hit, some people just get mad.
I do Thai boxing, and in a few sparring rounds with this one guy (who happens to coach a Czech female Judo champion in his free time) I was amazed at what I could throw at this guy and he didn’t even flinch. Full-on football-through-the-goal-posts kicks to the thigh, and he just smiled. His stomach muscles are so strong that he can take kicks, not just punches, there. He simply worked me, letting me hit him while he moved in on me- and then it was over and I was on the ground. PArt of the trick was to move in closer to me as I was trying to hit him- it didn’t allow me to gain full force with my attacks. So his best defense was to get in closer to me, which then turned into his best offense because he is mainly a grappler, not a boxer- and gettin’ close is what grappling is all about. And the closer he was, the less hard I could strike him (barring elbows and knees, granted, but by the time he was THAT close, I question if it would have mattered cuz I was on the way down already), thus he was at a significant advantage.
Which segues into what owl was saying in between his cryptic lingo (I know some Poms, but I still didn’t get half of what you were saying!). The static forms of most Karate-type MA’s don’t readily consider the fluidity of real situations. Sure you can break that board when it is being held in one spot, but can you break it if someone throws it at you? Unexpectedly? THAT’S what I want to see! Flipside: grappling forms are only fluid- you rarely practice grappling alone, capiche? So a grappler learns how to wear you down, and in the street, grappling someone down and then biting, pinching, punching, kneeing, etc. generally will prove to be more effective than that body blow you were convinced would drop someone.
And Tristan NO NEED for kicks above the waist? Sorry, but I’ve had quite a few kicks to the rib-cage (under my guard) that were thankfully pulled by my partner…I’d HATE to have a full roundhouse hit me there after I’ve been softened/confused by a jab-cross-jab-(fake cross) and don’t see it coming. Broken ribs suck; harder to breath, have to block further attacks to that area, etc. High kicks have their place (but mainly when used in combination with others strikes, granted).
But again, the best weapon in a fight is your brain. Especially in avoiding them, which is more important. I haven’t been in a full-on tumble in over 15 years, including the time I worked the door at a bar in college every Friday night for 8 months. Diffuse, smile, talk and move on…Why fight? My dentist bills are expensive enough without having to add that worry to them, even if I did ‘win’ the fight eventually.
-Tcat
I’m not a “player” and I would never teach someone to become a player… it’s irresponsible of me and dangerous to the student.
For a time I too made a living taking care of bar-room “cream-puffs” and was very good at that. What you probably don’t suspect is that I tip the scales at a whopping 145 pounds after a good meal. It is advantageous as most people who look at me don’t think I pose much of a threat, this is much like your attitude towards those who practice Karate… you are grouping all the people who train together as a bunch of cream puffs which is simply wrong, and dangerous.
I have also taken on some serious bad asses and managed to stay in one piece. No matter how tough one is it is difficult to win if you can’t inflict any harm on your target (me) and it becomes even more difficult when your target is adept at removing your ability to stand and fight. I do not encourage any students to get into punch outs with people as your hands are fragile whereas your knees, elbows, and skull can inflict more devastating punishment. I also have taught people that in a brawl the only rule is that you do what’s needed to walk away. If one does not have that mind set thet will get seriously hurt.
I have always found it easier to deal with people who were under the influence of drugs and alcohol, the people who have given me the most serious problems are the stone cold sober ones that are intent on kicking your ass.
I have been training for the past 22 years and despite the fact I am past what would be considered my fighting prime I am still confident that my skills and will to survive would carry me through. I was never the toughest guy in the Dojo, I trained with guys who scared the shit out of me. We trained in a full contact environment and competed in full contact tournaments where the losers were often carried off the mat. The people I trained with were the types that would never fold after one or many shots.
You bring up the ability to withstand punishment; I have been hit with multiple objects, had my knee dislocated by an extremely adept opponent, and quite often taken the first hit (sometimes purposely) and still managed to walk / limp away.
The guy who dislocated my knee paid a huge penalty as this occurred in a tournament and was a deliberate attempt to cripple me. This guy was nasty and had injured quite a few other people on this day and hadn’t been disqualified. I was the first person he met from our Dojo.
I disqualified him personally despite the fact I was down to one good leg. He went to the hospital with multiple fractures and I spent the next couple of weeks on crutches.
Despite all this I think we pretty much agree on what it takes to win a fight, I just object to your generalization that those who practice Karate are players or cream puffs.
Those folks who practice Tai Chi are the cream puffs… 
:ducks and runs: (which is always a good way to survive a fight)
Sorry, it took awhile to finish that and post…I just saw mole’s post. And I have 2 things to say to that:
A) “Properly Done” would be the crux of your argument. Try doing anything “properly” in a full-on bar brawl…just doesn’t happen. “Properly done” for half of those listed means hitting a square inch area, under stress, in the heat of the moment, on a moving target, at full force. Ummmmm…no. Ain’t gonna happen.
B) Even if you did manage to pull one of those off, it would have to be the first strike, and work immediately. Remember- it is an opponent, and they are going to try and do to you what you are trying to do to them. (And they are going to try and keep you from doing what you are trying to do.) Can you take what they have to throw if you miss, or it doesn’t incapacitate them? I have never in my life seen a two-hit fight (“me hitting you and you hitting the floor”), so I don’t think it is even worth trying to prepare for one.
You need to prepare for surviving a fight, not magically ending one with a ‘special’ attack.
-Tcat
Interesting discussion of striking vs. grappling.
Aikido has no strikes–in fact no offensive moves at all. The techniques are in response to attack, typically a strike or a grab. Aikidokas train to anticipate the attack and neutralize or reverse it. A lot of this is practicing not getting hit.
Aikido done well means a striker will never land a blow, and if the attacker overcommits the aikidoka will then take control of his body, either throwing him or taking him down and pinning him. These techniques can be done gently or vigorously.
A grabbing attack fares no better, as it necessarily places an arm or hand where it can be seized and a technique applied.
Back to the general discussion, I recall a saying that the fight will be lost by the one who makes the first mistake–perhaps not always true, but worth keeping in mind. And I’m reminded of a quote from a local sensei–“Number one self-defense technique is shut your mouth.”
This is all very interesting. I have a few questions though: What is the minimum amount of force that you are legally allowed to use to defend yourself? I have never been in a fight and have only the barest amount of training, but if I ever was in a real fight I’d do anything I could to finish it. Eye poke, hit the throat, ect. What the hell is a fair fight? Also, is “amature” wrestling a grappling art?
Sam Hell- Legally, at least here in the states, if the guy is coming at you with closed fists, you can do whatever you need to do. However, if you knock him out and then, movie style, keep kicking his prone body, you’re crossing the line and suddenly you are the attacker. Keep your head, gouge out his eye or crush his windpipe and run. You’ll be fine.
Tomcat- You’re right, ribs are a good place to kick. The problem with it is, a lot of folks don’t know how to kick properly. As I’m sure you know, kicking a person, esp a person moving around, is a lot different than kicking a bag. And kicking that high puts most folks badly off balance. But yes, if you know how, a good roundhouse or side kick in the ribs will usually make your attacker pause and think while he’s trying to find out where his lungs went…
FEYNN:
I mean no personal disrespect, and don’t mean to denigrate your sport.
However the question that is being asked/discussed is about the usefulness of martial arts training in the real world. I don’t think it’s much use at all.
I think that the peple who are capable of having a fight in the real world who use these techniques would be just as capable if they relied on instinct, as they are hard nuts to start with.
Yes its good to be able to slip a punch or feint. However having the mental capacity to pick up a bar stool and hit the other guy will win every time. ie its about will to win.
OST- I’ve been meaning to ask, although I’m pretty sure I know the answer… have you personally ever trained in a Martial Art? I’m guessing no, or you would have more respect with what is taught.
Personally, from what I’ve seen and what I’ve learned from talking to people, knowing how to properly throw a punch is almost as important as the will to do so. One could be the toughtest footy in the world, but if you don’t know how to throw a punch for effect, you’re gonna lose.
Note- I have the utmost respect for OST. I’m just hoping to get him to admit/realize that MA training can turn the tide of a battle…
TRISTAN (inter alia):
If boxing’s a martial art I have done a bit (with no great success I’m afraid). But I haven’t done any of the oriental ones, but I did do some unarmed combat with the Army (which i thought was pony as well, I’ve never seen two squaddies fighting using any of the techniques).
Yes you have to know how to throw a punch, but lets be honest, its not rocket science is it?
My probelm with the jap-slap-crap is that it is completely unrealistic in that it doesn’t prepare you for being the otherside of naked agression, which is very disturbing if you’re not used to it.
It also assumes that the other fellah is going to act in a predictable way, which isn’t true.
I feel that it gives an artificial level of confidence in one’s abilities that could get the person badly hurt if they go up against the grown-ups.
It doesn’t work in the real world.
THese things work in the real world:
Broken bottles
pint glasses
bar stools
snooker cues
darts
iron bars
Dr Martens
your head
teeth
pointy things generally
these things don’t work on real people:
two sticks with a chain in between
pointy stars
going “aaaiieee” at people
wooden swords and baskets on your head
standing stock still in a sideways position grimacing
anything you learn whilst wearing pyjamas
karate chops (oh! the mirth these create)
Learn all of the above and you will be able to incapcitate any brick in the world. But I wouldn’t try it on anything more sentient than a brick.
After all no ones actually scared of the Japanese football hoolies are they?
owl.
(considering a handle change to grasshopperstretchingtime)
OST:
I understand your point of view but I must mention that this is not true for all martial arts.
Persnally, I practice a form of Modern Wing Chun Kung Fu, and my Sifu always telss us the following:
(and I’m quite sure other martial arts have the same philosophy)
You can have as many black belts as can fit on you but if you don’t have the intensity and agression in you, you’ll get your ass kicked. Intesity is something that’s already present in everyone of us martial arts can develop this intensity, which, when added to proper technique will be useful in a real situation.
However, the thing is, the technique is only useful when it becomes natural, when you’re doing the stuff you learned automaticly and don’t have to think at what to do, it just “gets done”, this takes a LOT of training, and sparring, because the body learns a lot slower than the mind. (I’m not at that point yet bur I’m working on it)
There is also the notion that every adversary is different and anyone can come up with something you’ve never seen before, so what you learn shouldn’t be something that will defend you only against people fighting the same way, that’s positioned in the same manner, etc
All the series of techniques that are practiced aren’t made to be used always exactly in the same order and fashion, there’s an infinity of combinations, the ones we practice are just for the development of the flow, rapidity, reaction time… Everything depends on what comes more naturally for you, what the situation is and who your adversary is.
Finally, attack is the best defense and one must have a decent grasp on hitting, grapling and trapping to be a complete fighter…
So yes, some martial arts prepare you for the unpredictability of street fights, how to defend against dirty fighting and how to do it too (gauge the eye, kick the groin, etc)…some don’t, I did some karate (not that I want to bash Karate…it’s been done enough) but the fact is I didn’t like it, I’m sure some karatekas are very good, but I also think that some MA prepare you better for a street fight than others. So don’t judge the Martial Arts as a whole because many are very different from one another.
All in all, it depends on how it is teached and how it is percieved by the student; when it comes to a real street fight, if you expect to have the adversary hit straight at your face but stop an inch before your nose and keep his arm there to give you the necessery time to do your proper technique, then you’re toast…
Of course some people who learned how to fight in the street can be a formidable oponent as well…But what I think is that at equal stature, weight, etc and intensity, the one with the best training (be it MA, boxing, street fight, military training etc) will win the fight.
Here’s a couple of smilies make make this long post more cheerful:
Have to put my 2¢ in at this point. I think OST has a point. It has very little to do with wether or not you know MA or not. A real fighter is someone who can keep their head in a stressfull situation (a fight), is strong enough physically to both give and take damage, and is eventually tougher than whoever he is fighting. And when I say tougher, I mean able to mentally go beyond the pain and fear further than their opponent. Ive seen some pretty small guys do some pretty serious damage. One of the meanest fighters Ive ever seen was a 5 foot nothing skinny guy. Looked vaguely like Red Green from the Red Green show. But he was one MEAN little mother when pissed. Yet he had no formal fight training whatsoever. And Ive seen some so called black belts that had all the pretty moves down pat, but were completely hopeless in a real fight, not being prepared to take the pain. When you get a normal guy who has that sort of mental toughness and you add to it physical strength, you get the sort of people that OST was probably talking about, but if you add some proper hand to hand training to that, then you end up with one SERIOUS fighter.
But regarding the OP have you looked into SYSTEMA at all? Its the martial arts training developed by the Soviets. Supposed to be a combination of the best of all the other techniques. Its supposed to be a very good combination of both striking and grapling styles. Might be worth your while to check out.
Who would win in a fight: Master Po from Kung Fu or that boxing kangaroo from Looney Tunes? An interesting question perhaps, but not one with a factual answer, and not the question the OP posed.
I’ll close this thread since nobody seems to know the actual answer to the topic, the origin of the 95% figure.
I’m reopening this thread because maybesomeone has some factual information to add.
A note for the rest of you: If you have facts to contribute, please do so. If you want a debate, you know where to go.
bibliophage
moderator GQ
I may have found the answer to my own question:
The 95% stat comes from a LAPD study on the results of “fights” that officer encounter and/or respond to. What most people don’t mention is the simple fact that in LE work, the officer is taught to “prone out” (put face down on the ground) a resisting suspect. If this is the case, then the 95% stat makes perfect sense.
See: http://www.budoseek.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=13695#post13695 Posted 8/22 by Brachialstun