A BIG THANK YOU, a You Welcome and A BIG SCREW YOU

The BBQ Pit
21

I have no problem with grave reservations and honest fears and can understand some arguments that what we are doing was wrong.

No SCREW YOU here. But under the circumstances you have reevaluate your fears. The Big SCREW YOU goes out to people who put our military in greater harm, put US citizens at risk and people who want to come in and help now but didn’t want any of the dirty work.

When the war started I was looking through the NY times at war pictures and anti war pictures. The anti war pictures looked far more destructive then the war pictures.

I am trying to come up with a definition of moral obligation (much before I started this thread). So far I have come up with:

*If the moral net benefit to others outweighs the net benefit to yourself.

and

the moral net benefit to yourself is positive or neutral

then you are morally obligated to act.*

I don’t know if it’s correct but it’s as far as I got so far. and plugging Iraq into this I say that under that definition we were morally obligated.

I can understand the US centric view that it is none of our business how a ruthless dictator runs his own country, I really can. But on a human level such political boundaries break down and it is harder to say sorry you were born over there, must suck to be you when we have the ability to end the suffering w/o much loss to ourselves.

1 Oil

I like cheap oil, I use quite a bit of it and am not rich. Oil makes us one of the most productive nations and cheap oil helps the poor much more then does the rich. Big oil companies profit the most when oil prices are high. Is there a flaw in this statement?

The 1st 2 items you mentioned are factors not reasons, the 3rd is preposterous, this Pres has one of the all-time high approval ratings. People know the economy tanked the last quarter under Clinton and then just as Bushes plans started to work (remember the check you got taxpayers?) we were attacked and a city within a city was destroyed (WTC).

Also what is the total US body count? What is the total US lives lost due to the war protestors (including people dying in ambulances stuck in traffic due to protestors)?

22

I don’t have time to go into this right now but in short, views - yes, input - why should you have any? (sorry to throw it back at you but I really have to go now).

23

My problem was that I did not feel up to the task of deciding whether or not the moral net benefit (for ourselves and/or the people of Iraq) would be better served by exactly what kind of action.

Honestly, I think you may be largely tilting at windmills, kanicbird (at least in as far as the SDMB membership is concerned.
Sure, we had a few at the extremes (both extremes), but for the most part (my impression of) the ‘anti-war’ sentiments here on the board were more along the lines of “OMG, is this right? Is there nothing else, apart from this very drastic course of action, that we can do?” - this (to me) is the sign of a healthy conscience.

24

A bit??
A BIT???

The core of the sun is A BIT warm.
Bill Gates has A BIT of money.
The Mariana Trench is A BIT deep.
We’ve had approximately 15 billion of these in your face threads, each more stupid and annoying than the last. I’ve quit trying because they’re like fucking cockroaches; they keep popping up when some other knuckleheaded sock monkey looks down and sees a tiny penis. Bah.

25

So, you would silence those who hold dissenting opinions? Your point of view sounds similar to others that have been discussed here of late…

26

Put our military in ‘greater harm’…by protesting them being in a fight in the first place. Can you back up that, or is this logic’s day off?

This is a US-centric view? Seems to me that installing a government in another country is rather US-centric. “We know what’s best for you, so just let us handle the governing,” yes?

Compassion is a wonderful thing. Were you spouting the same message when all the pro-war rhetoric was on the topic of chemical/biological weapons?

As for ‘much loss to ourselves’, maybe you could talk to the families of some of the soldiers killed. Did you know anyone that went? Did YOU go?

Which has fuck-all to do with Iraq. Got any evidence that Hussein was involved? Great, thanks.

Oh, but you don’t give a shit about any other nationalities, do you? Just the Americans. For all your whinging about the US-centric attitude of the protestors, you sure show some bias. No mention of the Iraqis ‘liberated’ from life itself? No questions about other coalition forces? Surprised I am not.

Any evidence of that at all? I looked, but could not find. Perhaps you could enlighten us, o wise one.

On second thought, how about you just go fuck yourself with a rusty wire brush? I’m tired of worthless lackwits like yourself reducing everything to black and (red,) white (and blue), and then calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you Anti-American. I’m tired of your polarizing rhetoric, and I’m tired of having to defend myself against idiots who seem to have filled their heads with offal.

27

A hearty thumbs-up to the OP.

28

Yes. It’s not about cheap oil (which contrary to your belief, benefits business far more than individuals), it’s about keeping a large portion of the world’s oil supply tied to trade against the dollar instead of the Euro. One of the main things that keeps the dollar as strong as it is (even now, in its state of decline) is the fact that oil is traded for dollars not Euros. Care to imagine what happens when the world demand for oil no linger means a demand for dollars? Economic collapse.

OPEC has already stated their intent to move to the Euro standard, and Iraq would have moved right along with them. Now, the second-largest oil producing nation is under US control. Guess that settles the Euro issue, huh.

Really? Preposterous? How much attention ahve you paid to the fact that unemployment is at its highest since 1985 or so? To the fact that we haven’t yet found Bin Laden? To the recent (four days into the war) submission of a rape-and-pillage budget by Bush to, and through, congress? Do you even know what is included in the new budget? Do you know how much already ailing and failing social programs are getting cut, while a 350 BILLION dollar tax cut is being handed to the extreme wealthy at the far end of the spectrum, and you’re being asked to pay for this war out of your pocket?

Uh, no, the decline in the stock market happened within ONE DAY of Bush being elected, while Clinton was a lame duck. Even under the burst of the ‘dot com’ bubble, the economy wasn’t in retreat; just the tech sector.

Yes, by Saudi citizens, under the control of another Saudi citizen, whom we have yet to bring to justice. Why the hell didn’t we invade Saudi Arabia? Why aren’t we still hunting Bin Laden?

Oh sweet merciful Jesus, you are reaching here. If you can’t do better than this, shut the fuck up. How many Iraqi civilians have been killed during this war, due only to US error? Hundreds.

This rightgeous little war may well have killed several members of my family. Women and children, hiding in closets and under furniture while the dust rained down on them from explosions overhead. If you don’t have anything to put on the other side of that equation, shut your piehole, jingoboy.

29

You sir are not worthy of living in a democratic system. Please take your un-american, anti-freedom attitude to some more appropriate country.

30

I haven’t taken sides on the war at all, even now.
I really don’t know if it was “good” or not.
It happened, and I can’t recall a time when the government changed its mind because “the people” wanted it.
They do what they want no matter what the people want, IMHO.
We can only stand by and watch and hope.
(yes, we can protest, but it doesn’t seem to do anything)

I am happy for the Iraq people, though. They seem to be happy (loved the guy riding the statue)

31

We won the war?

That means that Afghanistan has a new government in place, and the Afghani people are enjoying more freedom, because we crushed the Taliban, who were ruling Afghanistan with an iron fist and trampling the rights of the Afghani people!

Right?

Right?

Uh?

It’s human rights, right? All about freeing oppressed people?

Does that mean they’ve also revoked China’s “Most Favored Nation” trade status?

Are we moving on to Sierra Leone next, where 8-year-old boys are concripted to fight?

Wait…it was about the WMD, right? So we’re, like, totally going to power into North Korea soon?

I’m totally lost, yo. I don’t know which war I’m supposed to support, which potential wars I’m supposed to support, who we’ve “defeated,” who we’ve “liberated,” or who we’re just “fucking in the ass.”

Can someone please help me understand?

32

While we are on the subject of uneducated asshats, Payton’s Servant, GWB could not have done any more in '91 than he did lest he fly in the face of the UN.

Now we just couldn’t have that, could we??

That WAS a UN supported action, not GWBs personal war.
Now you are at least educated.

33

Damn straight. If you’re not willing to bomb and kill people, you have no right wanting to help them. I say that the only people who deserve to have any compassion for the Iraqis are the ones with a true hard on for “nuking the ragheads.”

34

I’m getting really sick of people saying that because I’m against the war, I’m against the US. Or I’m against the troops. Or I love Hussein and want to have his babies.

No. I just would have like the UN to have ehausted all peaceful means before Bush when charging in there.

Was the outcome positive? Yes. Do I think the same outcome could have been achieved without blowing quite so much shit up? Yes.

Now, please. Get the fuck over yourselves, Um K?

:rolleyes:

35

Actually, anti-war folks have every right to be a part of the rebuilding process - while the warm-fuzzies are strong it seems like they’re cutting in on the U.S.'s “glory”, but after the glow fades they’ll be critical for two reasons:

1.) The U.S. needs their money.

2.) They need to keep the U.S. honest.

I hope point one is obvious. Do you really think we’re going to turn away free money? Do you think we’re in any position to refuse it?

As for the second point:
I’m very worried that, having accomplished its flashy, glitzy, mission, having spiked the ball and done it’s chicken dance, the U.S. will now make only a token gesture at rebuilding the region before politics makes it necessary to drop the Iraqis on their ear.

The general American public has a notoriously short attention span, and seems easily distracted by the latest shiny pebble. If the economy hasn’t improved significantly in 8 months or so, I fear that Americans will be wondering why we’re still funneling money into the Middle-East, why our “boys” are still out there providing garrison, and why we can’t afford the latest FPS for our GameCube.

So the world community (the real one, not “U.S., Britain, and 35 countries with populations smaller than a regulation baseball team”) needs to be around to cry foul if the U.S backs out. Not that it’ll help a damned bit: we all know how much the U.S. cares about it’s neighbors’ critical opinion.

It would be simplicity itself to prove me wrong - and please do!

First the U.S. has to stick to its guns (what a delicious pun) until Iraq is rebuilt. FTR, slapping the title of “President” on the first jerk to stick his tongue up our anus, rebuilding a couple of buildings, and getting those precious oil wells up and running does not constitute “rebuilt”. I mean really well-and-truly rebuilt, with a functioning economy and stable government - something which should only take a decade or so.

In the meantime, if it looks like we’re backing out of those obligations, I fully expect the Pit-Rants to be headed by people such as kanicbird, who have believed so strongly in liberating the Iraqis they care not what cost.

36

Hama you’ve almost got it:

Remember - we kicked ass in Afghanistan!!

(that brings the argument full circle so the ball-and-shell game can start again!)

37

I was, and still am opposed to this war. As alice_in_wonderland points out, that does not make me anti-American, and I resent any implication in that regard.

Period.

So stop with the slander already, O.K. kanicbird?

When the post-war occupation of Iraq turns into endless tribal warfare among the Sunni, Shi’ite, and Kurd factions (in other words, a quagmire), I hope I won’t lower myself to the name-calling and the “I told you so’s” of the OP. That’s just lame.

One of my main objections to the war was that Dubya had nary a clue what to do afterwards. Instead, he wanted to rush right in as if there were WMDs right at our doorstep and we were in imminent danger. Never was a plan mentioned about how to deal with a post-Saddam Iraq. Never.

Well, actually Dubya did mention a plan. He’s repeatedly said that he’s not interesting in “nation-building.”

Well fuck that! If you bomb the shit out of a country to liberate its oppressed citizens, you’d better be bloody well prepared to deal with the resulting power vacuum. And maybe you’d have the beginnings of such a plan in place before you act in the first place. Duh!

As Misery as eloquently pointed out in his/her post, this looks like the U.S. will once again make a mess, albeit with possible good intentions, and then walk away from the resulting chaos, wringing its hands, shrugging and muttering “Well, we tried to help the poor bastards …”

I may be wrong, and maybe the U.S. will make good on its promises this time. But the last 150 years of U.S. history – and Dubya’s glaring lack of a post-war plan – will have me betting against this outcome.

38

Wait a minute. I thought this war was about weapons of mass destruction. When did it change to liberation of oppressed people? Maybe when we couldn’t find any of the much ballyhooed WMD’s?

39

Don’t be so un-American, bnorton.

40

Well they DID call it “Operation Iraqi Freedom”, no??

And if they have the much ballyhooed WMDs, I would imagine they might be, you know, sorta not just laying around. They might have gasp! hidden them. Another argument in favor of waiting until it is over before making a concrete statement one way or the other.