A Book to Make Nietzsche Weep

I had no idea where to post this, so sorry if it’s in a wrong category.

I am a humongous philosophy nerd–I’m especially into existentialism and literature – I dig Kafka, Camus, Sartre, Nietzsche, etc. I am especially a fan of Nietzsche, thanks to a crazy good professor I had who was a veritable encyclopedia of knowledge on his life and philosophy (we got Will to Power Bars to munch while we did our midterm exams.) I really can’t understate what a Nietzsche freak I can be at times.

Anyways… I found this book one day, it’s called “When Nietzsche Wept.” It’s fiction, and the premise of the novel is basically, “What would happen if Nietzsche had been treated therapeutically by Josef Breuer and Sigmund Freud?” This is actually a relevant question, I believe… Nietzsche and Freud existed and worked at roughly the same time historically. When Nietzsche was a young man he read Freud and was so horrified by their similarity in thinking that he vowed never to learn anything more about him, lest his own philosophy be influenced by Freud’s. Furthermore, Nietzsche had all sorts of mental health problems, paranoias and prejudices (all of these painfully obvious in his own works)… Freud would have had a field day with him.

So I bought the book, completely fascinated by its premise–after all, it was written by a man with a Ph.D. in psychiatry. This was to be one of my new favorite books, I could feel it! Maybe I would gain greater insight into the world of Nietzsche!
Right? Right?

…No. No, I’m afraid not. This is without a doubt one of the WORST BOOKS I have ever read. I couldn’t even make it through the first chapter–mostly because I could not stop laughing. I present to you some choice excerpts from this monstrous creation:

It’s also worth noting that when Lou Salome, (one of the two chicks Nietzsche proposed to over the course of his lifetime) solicits Dr. Breuer for assistance with her ailing friend, she persistently refers to him as “Nietzsche.” Not Herr Nietzsche, not “'Friedrich,” but “Nietzsche.” It comes off as ridiculously expository, “Nietzsche deplores all prejudice”, “Nietzsche’s sister is the meanest most anti-Semitic person EVER”… it’s ridiculous. It insults my intelligence, it breaks my heart, and it’s ridiculous.

Dr. Irvin D. Yalom, you are no Übermensch. You are but a mere ape, the last man of literature!

Just thought I’d share. Feel free to add your own examples of horrific writing… or talk about Nietzsche/Freud/Breuer, I’m cool either way. :wink:

Olives,
Christy

One of my favorite novels. Really gives you a feel for Nietzsche’s thinking and his personality. A fabulous reading experience.

No worries. Discussions about literature (and other arts) belong in Cafe Society. I’ll move it there for you.

I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to come off as unnecessarily hostile. It never occurred to me that people might like the book–but apparently it has won all sorts of awards and become a best-seller in Israel. I think it’s a beautiful premise, and it’s clear the Dr. wrote the novel as a teaching tool… but I cannot, as a writer myself, justify the poor exposition. Perhaps a part of it is that I already know all the information (on Nietzsche, at least) being conveyed in the exposition, so it just reads as condescending. I don’t know. I hope I didn’t offend you or come off as arrogant and judgmental. :confused:

Me? Not offended in the least. That’s what makes horseracing.

The same way I find movies and TV shows about professors laughably simpliistic (and I’m sure lawyers find lawyer shows and movies idiotic, and MDs find, etc.), this novel may really offen Nietzsche experts, but what I felt, as a Nietzsche fan, was that it was a great tool for teaching his philosophy to undergraduates unacquainted with him.

Those undergrads who’ve heard of him have got the idea that because he was a late 19th century philosopher who wrote in German about Ubermenschen and their need to distinguish themselves from the mass of other, lesser men, and was hostile to Xian culture, (and whose sister outlived him and became a Nazi apologist) he must therefore be some kind of ur-Nazi theoretician, when (as you know) he was a courageous arguer for the examined life, and personal responsibility, and such (at least as I read him). Since he’s alSo tough to take in large doses, I’ve found, WHEN NIETZSCHE WEPT is a good way for me to sneak in some understanding of his worldview, in a narrative form, without requiring them to slodge through any more of his own writing (which is as I say pretty tough going) than they absolutely must. I haven’t used it yet in a class, only paraphrased it, but I’ve been thinking about putting it on a syllabus, maybe this summer.

I’m a pretty big fan of Yalom’s other books as well. Have you read LYING N THE COUCH? I’d be curious if it’s just his writing about your area of knowlege that set you off or if you don’t like the way he writes in general.

A book to make Nietzche weep? That’d be one with pages in it, wouldn’t it? :smiley:

All things considered, I think ol’ Freddy would have been better off with some Salvarsan rather than more time on a shrink’s couch. :wink:

olivesmarch4th, pseudotriton – If you’re both experts, please tell me: What was Nietzsche’s essential world-view? Bertrand Russell, in A History of Western Philosophy, called him a “sycophant for aristocracy,” and an admirer of the fierce and wild and useless/destructive over the rational and utilitarian, in the Romantic tradition going back to Rousseau; and wrote an imaginary dialogue contrasting his values with the Buddha’s. Was this a fair characterization?

This is so awful, it sounds like a parody of bad writing. Are you sure you didn’t pick up one of the Bulwar-Lytton Contest compilations by mistake?

Oh, boy, are you going to regret you ever asked me this…

I wouldn’t exactly put it that way. He certainly was very suspicious of the cult of science and rationality, but I wouldn’t say he discounted it completely. I think (and remember, I’m an undergraduate Spanish major, so take this with a grain of salt) that Nietzsche was inherently against any mode of thinking that required folks to subjugate themselves. He viewed science and rationality as necessarily bloodless and lacking vitality.

But the man had to have a certain degree of rationality to be a philosopher in those days – he was the youngest person ever to be granted a professorship in his time, and people were pretty much expecting the same old philosophy crap when he busted out with his first book, “The Birth of Tragedy” – which prompted his colleagues to respond with the 19th century equivalent of, “Are you on crack?!!” It was more dismissive of philosophers and scientists than anyone was really comfortable with, and quite unpopular at the time of its writing. Nietzsche’s belief was that philosophers and scientists were downright foolish in being certain that they had obtained some kind of Ultimate Truth that was indisputable – he pretty much saw all philosophical assertions as subjective–not necessarily worthless, but not the epitome of Absolute Value that many of the time perceived them to be.

I know that Nietzsche wrestled with the value of Socratic/dialectic modes of reasoning because, though he denounced and insulted Socrates every chance he got, he also declared him a “worthy enemy.” In fact, he’s pretty much stated that if he mentioned any other philosopher’s works in his writings at all, it means he believed they must have some philosophical merit, because they were persuasive enough that he had to actually sit down and think about whether he agreed or not. So yes, he did in fact call Socrates “stupid” and claimed it was because he was so ugly (“Twilight of the Idols”) – but it’s not really insulting when you understand Nietzsche’s concept of a “worthy enemy.”

In keeping with his suspicion of reason, “The Will to Power” (the last book he ever wrote, just months before his complete mental breakdown) posits that the ultimate value in life is to feel powerful – lest the average reader (or Russell, for that matter) interpret this to mean that he wanted social influence, it is important to understand the kind of things Nietzsche associated with feeling powerful. Among them: taking walks outside, listening to classical music, positing one’s own moral values, stepping away from the “herd” or “slave” mentality (which he saw embodied by Christianity), etc. In terms of whether or not he was a fascist, he despised all forms of government and if you absolutely HAD to label him with a political ideology, it would probably be anarchy. A lot of people interpret Nietzsche’s “Will to Power” as an apologist response to social hierarchy and its abuses – not so. He was interested more in moral systems than government systems. He didn’t feel it was necessary to restructure society, just to restructure how one determines if a person has value within that society. Nietzsche would have been outraged beyond belief regarding what his sister did (connecting his name to Hitler’s and anti-Semitism.)-- especially because he considered the Jews to be a superior race (second only, I’m sure, to the Greeks.)

But there is a REALLY IMPORTANT point that must be made here. One of the key difficulties with interpreting Nietzsche’s work is separating his personal experiences and general mental instability from the ideas he espoused. For every quote advocating a thing, he pretty much has another quote denouncing it. He was completely aware that his messages were often contradictory, and even reveled in it. He believed that one of the greatest marks of a strong man was the ability to hold two conflicting beliefs at the same time. This stemmed from his inherent belief that philosophers took their opinions to be Absolute Truth – in essence, he was saying, “I don’t feel the need to rationally justify my perspectives because I know they are after all only perspectives.” But on the other hand, the guy was a freakin’ mental case. He suffered from any number of psychological disorders and his behavior was often markedly different from the ideals he espoused. He would declare his hatred of women and then fall hopelessly in love. He would write such controversial statements as, “If your brother is falling, give him a kick!” but in person was one of the most meek, polite, genteel little guys anyone could know. He had ISSUES, and it is for this purpose I believe it is ESSENTIAL to understand Nietzsche the man before understanding Nietzsche the philosophy.

For example, let’s take the primary message of “The Birth of Tragedy.” In a few sentences, it was this: “The Greek god Apollo represents structure and form, and the Greek god Dionysus represents vitality and power. The Greek god Dionysus is better, and the downfall of German society is owed to the lack of Dionysian men. But Richard Wagner will set us all straight, because his music embodies the life well lived!”

His next work? “Nietzsche Contra Wagner” – on how Wagner is a decadent little bitch and his music sucks and doesn’t represent the Dionysian spirit AT ALL.

Note that Nietzsche’s fundamental belief system didn’t change–even decades later he was still crazy about this issue of Dionysian vitality–but he was still directly contradicting himself. Unless you understood that Nietzsche was a close, personal friend of Wagner, viewed him as his greatest mentor, and then felt betrayed by him, his philosophy would make no sense.

Re: Buddhism – and I feel especially interested in this topic, because I’m actually a Buddhist – Nietzsche directly addressed Buddhism in his book “The Will to Power.” He thought it was one of the better religions out there, but still viewed it as a kind of nihilism. Nietzsche was NOT a nihilist. He felt nihilists were weak-willed. Sure, all of life is interpretation, but the true ubermensch is going to stand up and create his own values. So it wasn’t really accurate for Russel to say that Nietzsche valued only destruction. Nietzsche thought destruction was a good high, but that it was essentially meaningless if you didn’t then create something else. Nietzsche also saw Buddhism’s pacifist perspective as equivalent to the Christian (herd, slave mentality) doctrine of “turn the other cheek.” Though he thought Buddhism was head and shoulders above the rest of religion, he still viewed Buddhists as fundamentally unable to assert their Will to Power.

**A Book to Make Nietzsche Weep **

What, the Passion of the Christ with a donkey Jesus?
(In my defense, I did resist making that dumb joke for over 12 hours)

Slithy Tove, you win the thread. And your user name wins the internet. You are SO mimsy.

I don’t really have anything to add to the thread, olivesmarch4th, but I just wanted to say a few things. It may be early to be saying this, but great thread; you raised an amusing point, you discuss matters of interest and dispense information, and show a fairly typical doper sense of humor in a mere 4 posts!

I took an intro philosophy course, and we never talked about Nietzsche much (though it was plain to see it pained the professor, we were behind the schedule and he had to catch up). I really enjoyed reading your perspective on him and his philosophy.

I do think the excerpts from the book you’ve shown are poorly written, by-the-by. Not that I’m some literary expert. :smiley:

Anyway, looking forward to seeing more posts from you, if this has been any indication of what we can expect. Welcome to the SDMB! :slight_smile:

Ya mean this? :smiley:

Knuckles, you make me blush. I’ve always looked longingly at the Doper Message Board, but worried I wouldn’t fit up to your rigorous standards. You have honored me with what you say!

Just wanted to pile on here and second H3Knuckles’ assessment of Olivesmarch4th as a true Doper and a trues Scotsman, i.e., one who agrees with me. I’m more of a Nietzsche fan than a Nietzsche expert, so I was more than willing to defer to her knowledge in answering Brain Glutton’s query anyway, and she seems to have nailed it in her pithy post. I admire him because he was more interested in exploring ideas that the world found hard to swallow, and sticking to his guns (even when they turned out to be pointed at each other) and not so worried about seeming to contradict himself. Also he grew a very cool 'stasche, very under-rated in moral philosophy.

:dubious: That’s borogoves, dammit!

Wow, I haven’t seen this warm a welcome of a new Doper since gabriela!

I’d like to chamfer the OP’s attention for a moment and say if you liked the book of which you refer in the OP, then you’ll love Love’s Executioner. Check it out you won’t be dissappointed. I used to assign it when I was teaching in the field… Yalom was classic for our class Irrational and Profane…

:smack: Seriously, I suck. If you knew how obsessed I am with the Alice books, you’d understand that I feel I have betrayed my most deeply-held values.

What I meant to say was, “Slithy Tove, oh how you gyre and gimble!***”

***Assuming, of course, it’s Brillig.
Did I redeem myself? :confused: