A "Christian-Israelite-Identity" and a "Kinist-Pro-Nomian-Theonomist"

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
1

What the heck is that?

I’ve been PM’ing with a guy who has identified himself as a “Christian-Israelite-Identity” and a “Kinist-Pro-Nomian-Theonomist”.

I’ve never heard of either of these things (in the two groups of descriptions as he sent them to me) and that’s a lot to unpack. Has anyone ever heard of this stuff? Is this just a fancy way of saying “I’m a Christian White Supremist who would like to install my particular flavor of theocracy?”

I’ve never met this guy and he’s using what he calls “an alt”, or fake account, on FB.

About 3-4 years ago we apparently had a mutual acquaintance on FB- a married couple. I didn’t know this couple IRL - they were a FOAF- but had spoken with the wife a couple of times. I don’t recall now what we even talked about but I do remember she had a tendency to say sort of outrageous things as did her husband. They both talked about guns a lot- something I’m not interested in at all. She talked about religion some.

This couple was later arrested in California on weapons charges. They were modifying semi-automatic rifles to fully automatic and making illegal, over-capacity magazines for these guns, among other things. I guess they were using FB to seek out customers for their illegal gun-modding business. There were initially charged with about 70 violations in total and lots of different law enforcement agencies were involved in the arrest so it was a big deal.

Before they went to court they had done an interview on a “prepper” website. It’s a pretty hilarious interview in light of knowing what really happened.

(That interview is here for those who are interested. It’s all BS: https://www.theorganicprepper.com/interview-with-prepper-we-were-held-without-charges-for-survivalist-facebook-posts/

A news story about their arrest: MoVal Duo Accused of Dealing Firearms Indicted On 70 Felonies | Banning, CA Patch )

I think he went to prison and that she got several years of probation. I don’t have a PACER account anymore so can’t look it up.

This guy contacted me recently via PM to ask about this couple and I told him what I knew. He said (typed) that he was friends with the wife and wondered what happened to them and we’ve been chatting since then.
I asked him if he bought stuff from the couple and he said “Nice try, FBI.” He later said “no” but he went on to say that he was really angry with/about the wife. I guess they had an internet “thing” going on and talked about religion a lot. He was mad that she “lied to him”, blah blah blah.

He uses some weird language sometimes. I guess that’s what caught my attention and made me curious about him.

For example, he said “(The wife) claimed to be Syrian, spoke with an accent, had an entire backstory, etc. She was a very pious “Russian Orthodox Christian” until I found out that she was prone to Promiscuity/Sexual Degeneracy after she divorced (the husband). We ceased being friends rather dramatically, and I couldn’t wrap my mind around wht (sic) someone could be so corrupted.”

At other times he speaks (types) quite normally, especially when talking about everyday things such as work or mundane topics.

But he’s a young guy- 24. What 24 year old speaks like that? (Of course, providing what he says is true.)

He has (had- they’re gone now) two “real” pictures on his fake account (that he apparently forgot about). In one he’s in a car showing a handgun and claiming he just saw some “Black Panthers” in a convenience store in a small town in his state.
The other picture was taken in his bedroom. It shows very little- just part of his leg and bed, and his three rifles leaning against the wall. All 3 are either AR-15’s or AK-47’s.

I asked him about the guns- “Why 3 of the same thing?” He said he needed them for protection, he likes their “aesthetics”, that they are good investments that hold their value, are fun, and that they are “very useful/necessary in times of unrest/lawlessness,” even though he’s from a very small town (3,000) that is “safe”.

I mostly just ask him questions. I don’t recall that he’s asked me any questions at all. And I was just going to tell him to bug off (for being evasive) about his religious views when he gave me this “Christian-Israelite-Identity-Kinist-Pro-Nomian-Theonomist” business.

I think what I’ve run into here is a lonely young guy (he says most people don’t like him), a working trade school graduate who lives in Michigan, who admits to being “redpilled” a few years ago on 4Chan, with some strange religious ideation, and who has been radicalized via the internet.

But would that lead one to becoming a “Christian-Israelite-Identity Kinist-Pro-Nomian-Theonomist”?

What the heck is that?

He said he’d like to marry and have kids one day but doesn’t think that will happen. He said “I’d love to marry and have a family, but with the moral degradation so pervasive throughout society, I’m not entirely confident it will happen.”

I told him that there aren’t that many young women who share his interests and that most women who saw those three rifles in his bedroom would be unlikely to want a second date.

As a parent I’d like to see him get out of those really deep weeds. On the other hand, if he’s a gun-nut set on creating his own whites-only theocracy, I don’t want to be a part of or encourage that at all.

What do you think of this situation?

.

2

A quick highlight/click ‘lookup’ led to:
[from Wikipedia]

…Some critics [ who? ] see theonomy as a significant form of dominion theology, which they define as a type of theocracy. Theonomy posits that the biblical law is applicable to civil law, and theonomists propose biblical law as the standard by which the laws of nations may be measured, and to which they ought to be conformed…

So pro-theocracy.

And this:

[also Wiki]

Kinism is a white nationalist interpretation of Christianity. The ideology is a "movement of anti-immigrant, ‘Southern heritage’ separatists who splintered off from Christian Reconstructionism to advocate the belief that God’s intended order is ‘loving one’s kind’ by separating people along ‘tribal and ethnic’ lines to live in large, extended-family groups."

That was creepy enough. I stopped there.

Even before this I thought his statements about marriage and a family sounded a lot like an incel.

And then was this: [Wiki]

Christian Identity (also known as Identity Christianity ) is an interpretation of Christianity which advocates the belief that only Germanic, Anglo-Saxon, Celtic, Nordic, Aryan people and people of kindred blood are the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and are therefore the descendants of the ancient Israelites.

Proceed at your peril.

3

Well, you got you a guy who wants to sound smart while imposing a theoracratic state that views the Ten Commandments as the final arbiter of law, with a flailing hands gesture towards religion as a basis for racism.

He’s a young dumbshit. Maybe he’ll get his head sorted out. I’ve been a dumbshit, I’ve seen dumbshits, but maybe not that extreme.

ETA round 2: I mean a guy who also flaunts his guns and survival/prepper stuff isn’t the sort of person I’d quiiiiite antagonize, but also somebody I’d want as little as possible in my life right now. I am hard-pressed to think of an individual I’d disagree with more.

4

“Christian Israelite” is just a small odd Christian denomination. Over the years it has attracted some small odd people, and it has some small odd beliefs, but the chances that your contact is actually Christian Israelite is zero – he’s just noticed one small odd feature, and annexed that. It’s like saying you’re ‘Christian’ because you believe ‘Judas was a real historical figure’.

What it means is that his theology is not very sophisticated and he’s not approaching his religion from a theological point of view. He’s looking for family and for somewhere to belong, and he hasn’t got any ideas of his own.

The ‘Christian Israelite’ angle is the idea that white Christians are really Jews - that is, God’s chosen people. Disconnected from the ‘Christian Israelites’ and the rest of Christian Israelite theology, his need to be chosen by God by ancestry instead of any of the other common methods – by act of will, grace, or obedience – is an indication of the sad place he’s in.

5

[Wikipedia]

…Christian Identity promotes the idea that all non-whites (people who are not of wholly European descent) will either be exterminated or enslaved in order to serve the white racein the new Heavenly Kingdom on Earth under the reign of Jesus Christ. Its doctrine states that only “Adamic” (white) people can achieve salvation and enter paradise. Many of its adherents are Millennialist.:115-119

It is considered racist, anti-Semitic, and white supremacist by the Southern Poverty Law Center…

Sounds more worrisome than ‘just a small odd Christian denomination.’

6

Yeah- that’s crossed my mind for sure. I don’t want to get mixed up with a potentially violent nut. I really get the idea that he’s a young guy that fell down a rabbit hole (but it is the internet. He could be a dog- LOL!). I hope he can find his way out one day but it’s also not my job to throw down a flashlight.

I’m surprised and continue to be surprised that the guy keeps PM’ing me. I’ve asked him some tough questions and said some blunt things. Politely, though.

7

I appreciate your impressions here and agree.

8

Thanks so much for your info on “Christian Israelite”. I’d never heard of this and adding the “Identity” part just ads to my confusion.

I’m not religious at all and never have been so as religious as this guy says he is I’m first surprised that he would even want to talk to me, and then also wonder why he continues to do so. We certainly do not have religion in common (and nothing else either!)

I think you are right about looking for belonging- lots of folks who joined gangs or cults mention feeling a sense of belonging, a sense of welcome, and/or a feeling of understanding.

He had me watch a YouTube video by somebody named “Kit Badger” - a “stage name”, it turns out.
The video was boring and about how Kit Badger took his kids to a restaurant and while they were waiting, Badger went to the restroom. When he returned, his 11 year old told him that he had waved at a man drinking at the bar who shot “the finger” at him in return.

Badger spent about 6-7 minutes talking about all the ways- all confrontational and up to using a gun- that this situation could have been handled.

I pointed out that Badger actually did what most people would do in such a situation- he acknowledged what the kid said and moved on with his day.

But what WAS interesting is that Kit Badger has 6 links below his video where he sells all kinds of stuff- hats at one website, shirts at another, knives on another, his own “One Stop Shop” that only sells about 10 items (so not so “One Stop” after all) including “lifestyle” at his own website.

Badger’s Linked-In shows his real name and that he also has a business making marketing videos. I went through each of the links with this guy and pointed out how YouTube sees you like this video so it recommends another similar to it, and how Badger is referring you to lots of other places to purchase merchandise.

I pointed out that if Badger, et al., could keep him interested but slightly isolated and slightly afraid but clicking those links, that all these folks could find a way into his pocket for a “lifestyle” lifetime.
I said ‘This is how you fall down a rabbit hole.’

9

I wonder what the bartender would say if those two guys walked into a bar.

10

Is this guy PM’ing you when he should be spending the time finding real friends (and maybe even a girlfriend) in the real world?

Though he may think he’s found a girlfriend, and he just has to keep typing, keeping you involved until you succumb to his charms.

11

He is! I’ve suggested he log off and do something to meet his stated goal of getting married and having kids. He said I remind him of his friend’s mom- LOL!

12

I indulged this guy by agreeing to watch that one short Kit Badger video. He also referred me to videos by “Varg Freeborn”, some other pro-gun, manly man, fighting tips/self defense guy.

Certainly Varg Freeborn must also be a stage name like Kit Badger’s (real name Ivan Loomis) but I was unable to ferret out his real name. With his (supposed) backstory, you would think some proof of his tale or other information about him would be available.

Supposedly Varg Freeborn was raised an abused child in a poor and dangerous drug- and gang-filled neighborhood somewhere in the US and was forced to kill a man who attacked him (maybe at a party?) when he was 19.

Freeborn supposedly stabbed the man 12 or 13 (I forget) times, killing him.

Freeborn did 5 years in prison where he used his time to embark on a program of self-improvement. One freed from prison, he applied to have and won the rare right to have his ability to own a gun restored and now he has a thriving business training both civilians and law enforcement officers all over the country in self-defense. Freeborn describes himself as " author, self-defense and gunfight instructor, lethal force educator, fitness coach, a father and a family man."

Freeborn doesn’t have as many ‘opportunities’ to purchase junk under his YouTube videos as Kit Badger does.

13

So we have a young white supremacist wing nut with probable incel tendencies and warped religious beliefs who has no friends and spends most of his free time online so he can reinforce his twisted views. He’s not falling down a rabbit hole; he’s at the bottom and shoveling. And he’s hoping you join him.

I’d think the odds of this are pretty remote, as you’d be swimming against a red tide, so to speak. He may also have mental health issues you haven’t discerned yet, making his redemption that much more unlikely.

No “if” about it.

You seem like a very kind person. You can’t get him out of those deep weeds, though, and you’re in a potentially dangerous situation. After all, you know nothing at all about him, but he can find out where you live and work, if he doesn’t already know. (I’m assuming your FB account is under your real name. Hopefully your account isn’t public.)

Wish him luck and walk. That’s my take.

14

That’s some sound advice. Thanks.

15

And it’s not Christian-Israelite. It’s a detached belief – disconnected from the Christian Israelites and from Christian Israelite theology. Telling people that you identify with “Christian Israelite Identity” is like telling people that you identify as a Martian – it tells people that your identity politics are naive, and it also draws attention to the fact that you aren’t Martian.

There are other people that have race-based religions and identity based religions. You should be able to think of a couple without any effort. Being a member of a race-based or identity-based religion doesn’t automatically make you a bad person. In the range of race-base religions, the Christian Israelites are indeed just a small odd Christian denomination. Even in the wider range of human behavior, the CI are just a small odd group. CI ‘identifiers’ are a sad group of individuals who aren’t even hooked up to the CI.

16

I agree the guy has fallen off the deep end, but the only way they ever come back is with relationships to others. I would probably keep talking to him as long as I can stand it and he doesn’t act up. You seem to be done ng a good job pointing out problems without alienating him, which is impressive.

With me. I’d probably be getting too angry at this point. But you seem okay, so I’d stick it out, but with an eye towards leaving if it becomes too much.

17

Yeah, that sounds like a pretty good way of simplifying the equation.

Please tell me you are not insinuating there is something wrong in belonging to a group that identifies itself as G-d’s own people?

“What is this, some kind of joke?”

18

Thank you for clarifying. I see that some C Israelites communities were established in Aus. and NSW in the 19th century. Indeed a small and odd sect but, as you say, harmless.

It’s when the ‘C I Identity or Identifiers’ qualifier gets added that it spirals down into:

“It is considered racist, anti-Semitic, and white supremacist by the Southern Poverty Law Center.

Very different with the ‘identity’ qualifier, as you say. For her own sake the OP should hide any identifying info about themselves and fade as far away as they can from this malignancy. At best they have been targeted to be the catch at the end of a very long con. At best. If I were the OP I’d also find the avenue to inform law enforcement if they feel the person is capable of harming themselves or others and certainly if they have illegally modified weapons. That can be done anonymously through state police channels.

19

Would that be your advice to your daughter, if she were spending a lot of time communicating with someone like this?

20

It would be difficult for someone who didn’t know me to identify me from my FB account so I’m pretty comfortable there. I’ve always used the internet with an eye toward security. Funnily, that’s how I was able to identify so much about him even though he’s using an “alt”, as he calls it. I just trolled through his posts and then his about a dozen friend’s posts and gathered a lot of information. He was pretty impressed about what I could discover about him doing that but he shouldn’t have been.

I had wondered why this guy contacted me and at first thought he might be the husband or the wife who were arrested and who was back on-line but using a fake account. Part of their conviction bars their using the internet.

Then I thought he might try a con of some sort, but that never happened (so far anyway).

I am also attentive to potential legal issues (I’m a mandated reporter).

When the shooting at the grocery store in Colorado happened a few weeks ago, I asked him if he was OK and then asked him if HE was thinking of harming himself or others.
He said “You remind me of my friend’s mom.”
I replied “You didn’t answer my question. Are you thinking of harming yourself or others? Do you have any plans to do so?”
He said ‘no, he wasn’t thinking of that and that didn’t have any plans to do so.’
I can only presume he is sincere in that response.

I also asked him if any of the 3 rifles had illegal modifications since the couple we had known in common had been arrested for that. He said “I never did any business with them. Everything I own was purchased legally in my state.”

But I pressed him further about that. I felt his saying “Everything I own was purchased legally in my state,” was evasive.

I asked "If you did want to mod a mag, you could have someone like Andy do it for you (illegal) or buy part “A” from seller “A”, part “B” from seller “B” etc., and do it yourself, right?

That would leave the sellers “innocent”, your purchases “legal”, and the modified mag would just have to not be noticed by anyone such as someone at the gun range- who if they are a gun-nut buddy, won’t snitch."

He said his rifles took 20 and 30 round magazines and that his state doesn’t have a law regarding magazine size (which turns out to be true) unlike “tyrannical… California” and that none of his guns were modified.

Honestly, I absolutely would have ratted him out his he admitted to having illegally modified his guns.

Anyway I appreciate all your good advice.
I’ll update below (not much new happening).