I’m continuing to try to understand religion in general and Christianity in the U.S. specifically, and I appreciate those who endeavor to educate me. So now I come to another bit of confusion that I’d like help on.
My very conservative right wing Christian friend really appears to have a strong affinity and loyalty to Israel. So much so, that nothing disparaging can be said about it without being called out as an anti-Semite. I actually question his proclaimed loyalty to the U.S. I haven’t asked him yet, but I’m interested in learning if this is a trend of any sort.
So here is a poll, limited to U.S. Christians:
I’m a right wing Christian whose ultimate loyalties lie with the U.S.
I’m a right wing Christian whose ultimate loyalties lie with the State of Israel.
I’m not a right wing conservative, but a Christian whose ultimate loyalties lie with the U.S.
I’m not a right wing conservative, but a Christian whose ultimate loyalties lie with Israel.
WHen I say “ultimate” loyalties, I’m really just comparing the two countries. So I ask you to pick between these two. for the purposes of this particular exercise, lets not deal with 'my ultimate loyalties lie elsewhere (i.e. family, home state, Mexico, Canada, etc)
This is exactly what confuses me too. One of the reasons of the poll. I don’t want to skew the poll or ‘chase anyone off’ so I will try to refrain from making judgment calls.
Let’s just say that I’m confused and would like to learn more information.
It’s not really that American fundamentalist Christians are “loyal to Israel” in the conventional nationalist/patriotic sense. There is a set that is devoted to a certain concept of the role that “Israel” (not exactly congruent with the state) is supposed to play in the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.
I suppose it is likely that some people who don’t fully grasp what they’ve heard preached have transferred this idea to something more like conventional nationalism (albeit for a nation not their own).
It’s worth noting that all this meant to be understood as part of “end times” prophecy, and as such is not exactly friendly to Israeli Jews as such (or anyone not a fundamentalist Christian).
As a terrible jew who lives in American I’ve always found those fundamentalist Christians who go on about Israel to be creepy as all hell. Some of them just won’t shut up about it.
I don’t know how to pick - can somebody give some examples of how loyalty to one country conflicts with loyalty to the other? Whatever you mean by “loyalty”.
Is it sort of “if the US and Israel were drowning who would you save first?”
Yeah, the one thing I could sort of figure out that creates this impression is that some in the Religious Right hold to a belief that’s more along the lines of that God wants the USA to always back Israel unconditionally and unreservedly. That’s not the same thing as saying the individual’s ultimate loyalty should be to Israel as opposed to the USA – the ultrafundies, if confronted with a situation in which the US and Israel governments were at a hostile impasse, would just tell themselves that means the US government at the time is an illegitimate heathen antichristian one and needs replacing with a righteous Christian one.
I think this is what my friend is leaning towards. I don’t know of course as I’m trying to learn. But this is what makes the most sense to me at this time.
I’m just trying to see if it is unique or a common theme with such groups and individuals.
Your friend may be an example of Christian Zionism. I tried unsuccessfully to find a good, succinct online explanation; the best I could come up with was this article and Wikipedia.
OTOH, there at least as many people around the world who *hate *Israel for equally stupid reasons, so I guess the pro-Israel idiots even out the anti-Israel idiots.
MAYBE somewhere there are CHristians who are pro-Israel for what liberal, secular Jews regard as the wrong reasons. I haven’t encountered them. I hear often that liberal, secular Jews shouldn’t trust pro-Israel Christians because they’re motivated by a hope that a war in the Middle East will trigger the Rapture and the end of the world. I haven’t encountered any such Christians, either.
Speaking ONLY for myself, I am sypathetic to Israel because the Jews, alone among all nations, have been oppressed and persecuetd nearly everywhere they’ve lived, and I understand the need for a secure homeland for Jews. End of story. I don’t believe Israel’s existence is divinely mandated, and the exact location of Israel’s borders is a matter of complete indifference to me. I generally support and respect Israel, but they’re just another country. I have no problem calling them out when their behavior is questionable or even immoral.
Feh, the haters don’t get all gushy and try to convince me that they love Israel so Christ can return when ‘my people’ - which should actually be surf-dudes from Los Angeles, really - finally lock down control of the holy land. Urgh.
“You should return!”
“You have the right, you know.”
“Why don’t you return?”
Ick. At least with the haters you know where you stand. They hate jews, we think they suck ass, everything’s even. But the Christian zionists - if that’s the right word - want the jews to succeed so they can advance their own thing.