A couple of questions for the DMs out there.

On the matter of magical object proliferation, I suggest two “monsters” from our campaign, based in the mythical Freeport. You could buy anything in Freeport, except Thionite, and slaves. Everything cost four times what was in the book. They would buy anything useful for half book. So, as you might imagine, thrift being notably rare among player characters, everyone had lots of loot. Then one day, a group of adventurers came back from a very old dungeon, from which they brought a large number of really cool magical items. Trading and selling disbursed them into the pc and npc populations rapidly. But, one day, a guy in a bar pulled out the Wand of Pnoth, and tried to cast a push spell on a friend’s drink, and the wand crumbled to dust, after filling the air with a ten foot globe of fine white powder. The bar was a popular hangout for wizards, and was packed at the time. The incidence of such catastrophic failure was fairly low at first, but over a year or so, they became commonplace.

Turns out the items in the original cache were infected with “white mold.” It is a very pernicious growth, caused, or at least enhanced by the presence of multiple high level enchanted objects in proximity. The mold has no effect until it reaches a critical level of development, and then it uses all the magical energy of the object to create a cloud of spores, and dimension door them into the space around it. Any object within the radius (ten feet per level of the enchanted object which spores) is very likely to be infected. There is no known way to tell if your item is infected, or to reverse the effect. Legendary objects get a saving throw, but no adjustments are allowed. (Save vs magic as the magician or cleric who created it.) In addition, multiple infections greatly increase the speed of the infection, causing large number of items in proximity to occasionally cascade in explosive fashion. (The Freeport Magician’s Guild Shoppe was tragically driven out of business in a single night.)

And then there was the infamous Valley of the Dragons. A dozen parties went through it, on their way through the Mountains of Despair, a favorite route to the realm of Kaelborough, of which the less said, the better. Thing is, no one ever saw any dragons, except once, and those were oddly only pony sized, and herbivorous. (Although the were annoying, and fairly hard to kill, having absurd armor class, and ludicrous hit points. Fortunately, they were stupid, too.) But the Players never could figure out how they kept loosing their gear. At times the loss became frightful, with packs and all leather items disappearing overnight, or all metal or all gems, or some other simple single characteristic. Turns out the dragons of the valley come in all sizes, including microscopic. They have random levels of intelligence as well, from bug stupid, to spell casting brilliant. They also eat one thing from a list. Metal, crystal, etc. and are either attracted to, or repelled by magical auras. The wrong combination and the tiny little buggers will eat your whole spell book, or your wands, or your armor. After a while, though, folks pretty much stayed out of the valley, even though no party ever encountered carnivorous dragons, which were on the list. We thought of having them swarm, but never got around to it. By that time, the level of magical loot had dropped down to more reasonable levels. (And costs went to eight times book for magic stuff of any sort.)

Tris

On the subject of limiting magic…

Played a good game a couple of years ago where the island kingdom we lived on was at war with a major power on the continent. Magic items > +2 had a pretty decent chance of being confiscated for the war effort and lesser magic had a tendency to be taxed in direct proportion to it’s usefulness to said war effort. The GM was also seriously stingy with magic (and treasure). We had only gotten two +1 daggers (one of which got a legendary reputation for the luck we had with it when needed) and one larger magic weapon by the time we got to 6th level.

Then my Wizard took Craft Magic Arms & Armor and equipped the entire party with +1 items, which pretty much drained off all our cash.

In the last game I ran, it was a build-up to open war with a race of natural magic users. I intended for them to start off the war with pre-emptive castings of Mordenkainen’s Disjunction on major Inns where adventurer types were known to hang out, on a set date. Whether or not the party was in one of these places at the time was up in the air.

The WotBS campaign I’m currently in is also magic stingy. We have one major magic weapon (if you play it, you know the one) and one fairly nice Holy Warhammer +1 that my Bard took Master’s Touch in order to be able to use.

While I enjoy campaigns where people have lots of magic, I also enjoy the games where items are fairly rare too.

The ones I HATE are the ones where magic is so freaking rare that even potions are unavailable and treasure is near non-existent. Oh sure, some people wax eloquent about Burning Sun campaigns where a real weapon is a huge treasure. I’m not one of them. I cannot stand games where my 5th level character has little more than starting equipment (if he hasn’t lost some of that) and can’t even afford to stay in an inn for the night. I signed up to be a hero, not some destitute vagabond.

Oh. I really, really, really advise against this sort of passive aggression. It is pretty much guarenteed to make the DM-player relationship antagonistic, and every time I’ve seen someone try that it made things worse – just before the game imploded on itself.

Everybody needs to have fun. It is not fun having the DM arbitrarily take your stuff away and impose bad things upon you just because you are not doing as the DM has dictated. Better by far to just talk to the players about what the problem is.

If talking it over doesn’t work, as they say at RPG.net “No gaming at all is better than bad gaming.” But that kind of passive-aggressive DMing just leads to bad gaming and bad feelings on all sides. Bad news.

Heh. That’s why I kinda had to laugh. The OP’s players are min-maxers… and they’re really kind of BAD at it. No way that DR is more optimal than those lost character levels. That sort of thing is a trap – it seems like an incredible deal! But in actual play, you find out it came with a ghastly handicap. (much like the Mystic Theurge, actually – seems amazingly powerful, is actually not so much.)

I don’t agree that going from chaotic good to neutral good “completely” changes anything. Besides DnD is whatever the DM says it is, with the books and modules only providing a useful general guide, and I said he was over-planning and this was incompatible with the other way he was playing “chaotic”, namely the occasional amoral foray into murky ethical territory. We’d had another player who liked being “Chaotic Neutral” because he figured this made it okay to steal magic items from other party members. Had I been DMing those sessions, I’d’ve indicated this character was gradually sliding into evil. The DM at the time, however, was the very player I myself later shifted from chaotic to neutral.

And besides, when he and the party started on their extended plans, I got bored. I guess I could’ve just thrown ambushes at them, but I never really cared about alignment anyway, except for extreme cases like Paladins and high-level Clerics and whatnot. The rest of us exist in the squishy moral middle.

You’re the DM, which means whatever you say goes, whether or not your players like it. Most players don’t need to be reminded that pissing off the DM can carry adverse consequences, but yours apparently do, so remind them. Be specific: “I’m sick and fucking tired of you assholes taking all day to cast your god damned spells. Next time you take more than X seconds to cast your spell, I’m going to throw a lightning bolt up your ass so hard Zeus will break a kidney just thinking about it.” Then follow through with it. This is the answer to the rest of your problems, too. If you don’t like something, don’t allow your players to do it. You don’t have to play by the book.

It depends on if they like the having money or the getting money. If they like the having, they just want to be able to talk about what awesome shit they have, then it’s hopeless. But if they want the purpose of every quest to be tangible, and if they love the feeling of finding a dragon’s lair, you can do that as long as you also find a way to keep money flowing out, as well.

Our DM does this by always having us have some ridiculously expensive hobby–in our AD&D campaign we have an Inn we run, often at a loss (and we always want to make capital improvements) and in our Stardrive campaign we have a ship–huge money sink, especially improvements. It means we get to keep on finding money (which makes us happy) but that we can’t have everything we want (which we understand also keeps us happy).

I’ve been playing D+D since 1979 with the same group (and we still use the 1st edition rules). :eek:

Although the rules are changed, hopefully our long-lasting principles will apply to your game:

Player attitudes - we all take it in turns to DM, so everyone understands what it’s like from both sides of the screen. It sounds like some of your players have no clue how to DM, nor what problems you face - could they not take a session now and again?
As others have said, it’s important everyone enjoys both the game and the atmosphere. (If you just want to beat people, play chess :cool: )

Spell targeting - our player says what spell he wants to cast and the DM offers a couple of choices. “Your Fireball can either hit both the Hill Giant and the closest two ogres; or you can get the 4 ogres on the left.”
At the start of each round, the DM says roughly what the monsters are doing. Then the players can each say up to 3 words to guide the others. Then they have to state character actions and we can roll initiative.
This process does not take long, but if a player wants to have a think, we let them. (However if this delay happens too often, maybe they should play a simpler character.)

Magic items - we play characters can order a special item from a suitably powerful NPC. However it costs a lot of money and you either have to include at least half the price in other magic items, or do the NPC a huge favour (plot hook!).
A (+1) weapon costs 5,000 gold pieces, a (+2) 15,000, a (+3) 30,000 and so on. (Likewise a Wand of Magic Missiles would be 5,000; a Wand of Invisibility 15,000 …)
So when players get treasure they don’t need, they hang on to it and trade it in.
If your players value money, let them spend it on expensive items…

Heroes or mercenaries? - well it should be possible to cope with characters that are somewhat on way or the other, but fanatics of either type are potentially risky. (I agree that evil characters don’t work!)
In a typical party we could combine a heroic Paladin and LG Cleric, plus an NG MU and a LN Thief (who sticks by his word, but benefits financially from the others being successful). But Paladins and CN alignments don’t mix.

Books and reference material - we use only the original manuals, plus an additional printed rulebook we have all contributed to, and agreed on.
So we have additional character classes like the Ocean Barbarian (Viking type fighter; doesn’t like any magic but Clerical) or the Warrior Monk (less abilities than original, but better packaged), and know how long you can hold your brwath underwater etc.
There was a proposed official character class called the Cavalier once, which was simply unbalanced. We agreed not to play it.
Personally I would never accept a character class without having studied and agreed it. This leads back to your players having no DM experience…

min/maxers “That spell never works, they always save. (I hate you!)”. :rolleyes: I teach pupils at my school the game. If one of them whined like this, I would take them outside and explain the concept of roleplaying and everyome having fun. If they did it again, I would tell them to go try something else.
“I want to play this character, which is overwhelmingly powerful. (Wah!)” Same thing. Explain politely that it unbalances the game and makes writing adventures too difficult. Find something else they enjoy and roll that up.
There is no point in playing with sulky or unappreciative players.

Swapping characters - if it’s for the benefit of the party, we allow it at no cost. “I say chaps, we need another Cleric!” “All right, if it will help, I’ll drop my Thief and roll one up.”
Otherwise you can change at any time, but lose 50% of your experience and your magic items.

Did you steal my character sheet? :smiley:

That seems to be the real problem to me.

I never let them have a block of time in the middle of the session to do this in. I’ll give them the set up and let them worm their way through it between games. They can call me and ask any questions if they please. (I learned this the hard way from a particularly disasterous Star Wars campaign with one particularly bone-headed insult-to-primate-kind who insisted on smacking the other characters over the head and dragging them into his own utterly-moronic plan, which failed two seconds after he began it. This came after well over an hour of arguing, with one brighter player repeatedly pointing out the giant, gaping flaws in other people’s plans (and he was right) and tryig to propose a relatively simple, straightfoward plan himself. This led quite swiftly to the disintegration of the entire game and several personal feuds.

The irony was the entire bit as nothing more than a minor challenge (they were trying to get off-planet in Star Wars, past Sith security but with several bulk cruisers and numerous smaller transports leaving daily), but let the dimwits run wild and they started tossing plans about like they were going out of style.

I think planning is a problem when people have low int and/or wisdom–different problems for the two stats, obviously. That, not alignment, is what is likely to make our GM say “I don’t think so”. Furthermore, in our D&D game, at least, we have a barbarian gnome with a seven wisdom. The only way to get time to make extended plans is to tie him to a tree, first.

In fact, making people live up to their dump stat is a great way to encourage character and discourage min/maxing. So many people think they can dump an unlucky 6 in charisma or wisdom and not have to pay for it later.

This is Dinsdale’s son. I have run several games as DM or Gm in varying tabletop RPGs.

For your first point, it really depends on how you want to play it. If you want to put the pressure on them, tell them they have six seconds or so, then let them go. I sometimes let my characters debate exactly where to put a spell or arrow so that I can decide what to do with my villain or allied NPCs.
Second: My players have to go to a really special shop to find magic items. Generally, I offer limited magical items in two places, large trading ports and magic-intensive cities, often the capitols of nations run by spellcasters. Even then, it will never be above a plus two enhancement bonus. If they want powerful magical items, they have to make them themselves or go looting ancient treaure hoards to find them.

Third: Why give them the choice? On one of their mercenary jaunts, have one of the villains be the son or nephew of some great villain or some such. This brings the Villain instantly to bear on them. I have done this in the past to force a group, who was skirting around the evil but very powerful government, to fight. There are other ways to force a group to go on heroic campaigns. One which I have foudn intriguing, is that, as mercenaries, they are hired to perform the heroic deed. It makes for great role-play when the more vicious and materialistic players argue with the righteous, heroic players over the “right” course of action.

Fourth: The solution is to get a good library. If you do not have the means to do so, I request that anyone who wants a new special class or ability bring it to me at least a month in advace, with the book, so that I can look it over and say “yay” or “nay.” For example, I never run psionics in my game, because that makes it far too complicated. Magic is quite enough, especially with my intricate worlds and villains.

Fifth: In D&D, the term “Dungeon Master” is used. I dislike the term, preferring 'Game Master" or simply, “GM,” because that first letter, “G,” stands for GOD! I have made people re-roll stats that were heinously high. If someone has too high a stat roll, have a poisoned blade attack his nerves, slowing him down and limiting his dexterity or whatever. The blow of a magical axe, wounds his armor, which will never protect him as well again with the great rent in his breastplate. Remember, as God, you can do whatever you want in this little world to make it fair. One of my favorites, which I would suggest on your Fey’ri, make the population of the land hate Fey’ri, and they will always attack him with their best and most powerful weapons.

Six: Often, I have character development as a group, so the gang forms together, locking like puzzle peices, not so much in skills and such, but in character histories and personalities. I know how annoying it can be to have a character dissapear and loose pages of thought-out campaigns. My solution, again, is to require them to give you sufficient advanced notice. Tow sessions in advance is good for me, but I don’t run very often, once or twice a month.

I hope this helps.

This is the big key here. In the D&D campaigns I used to play, each player had to draw a circle with the words “I Believe” on the back of his/her character sheet, and if that player started whining and getting on the GM’s nerves, the GM would order him/her to press the I Believe button (and stop bitching) or face the consequences. It was a little silly, but it was a great way to make the GM’s supremacy over the course of the game’s events tangible.

Having listened to msot of the poeple here brag about being the biggest jerk of a GM ever born, if you ever acted like that toward me I’d beat the living stuffing out you. And wreck your game. Maybe not in that order.

If you’re talking to me, I’ve never been a GM. I guess that explains why you let Nerd-Boy wreck your games, though.

I’m fine with the notion that the GM is God. In fact, as I’ve mentioned in other threads that I think it explains a good deal of what goes on in Genesis and Exodus. But I wonder why so many assume the GM is a God of Wrath, He Who Must Be Obeyed. Players are not sheep to be led, they’re goats that bray and bridle at command, and occasionally try to fuck anything that moves.

The GM is a just and loving God. He gives us no burden which we cannot bear, though it may test us mightily. He doesn’t give us what we want, but what we need.

:rolleyes:

Take it to the Pit.

This was something that often popped up in our Shadowrun games- there was one memorable run where the cost of our ammunition actually ended up being more than the reward money. But we also got some very valuable information and a couple of contacts out of it, so overall it was a net gain- just.

One of the things about being a DM/GM is having to adjust the adventure on the fly. Most (if not all!) GMs will have at least one story about a meticulous plot or event that’s been laid out in painstaking detail, and is thrown into complete disarray when the characters either bypass the situation completely (On second thoughts, Let us not go to Calimshan- it is a Silly Place!) or fluke a dice roll and take out the Arch Villain with a long-range crossbow bolt…

It wasn’t intended to be a pit thiny, but seriously, some of you sound like you’re walking around just thinking up ways to screw the players.

(Such as knocking down lucky attributes) Oh, I don’t like that you got good results with the system I created! So I’m going to just randomly knock them down! There are better ways to deal with the problem. First off is to not use random rolls, or to use some of the variant random rolls designed to give more even results. And making the characters roll in front of you is good. But it’s just obnoxious to let them roll and then say, “Oh, well, you actually got something nice so I’m going to mess with the results.” If I were a player I’d be :mad: . Then why did you want me to roll in the first place?

(What, you’re actually behaving like an intelligent being?!) Oh, I don’t like that your character actually behaves like he’s a fantasy whatnot, trying to study powerful combat/magic/rogue/whatevere techniques and is building an effective character. If you don’t want people using PrC’s and things, then don’t let them in or only let in a selection. Frankly, I almost never let in any outside of DMG and the base Forgotten Realms, because I idn’t want to allow all the Minmaxing. Other GM’s who were running high-powered games let in anything, and lived with it.

(What, you’re wanting to do something effective?) If you’re using a grid system on combat, yes players will try to use it to maximum advantage. Why shouldn’t they? You’re going to do that. They need to be able to as well. if you want to introduce targeting rolls, be my guest, but you need to warn them in advance and let them figure out how they can excel on them. If what you’re really wanting is to speed up battles, then do that and leave of the targetting.

I recall a game where the party wizard used to ask the GM basically how many he could line up for his lightning bolts and such, there being a grid half the time. The GM hated that the guy actually was trying to use his spells to gasp maximum advantage while the party was fighting for its life that he eventually declared that no two enemies were in a straight line. With the advent of noneuclidean enemies, the game quickly folded.

As Lightray said, too many of the responses here are designed to piss people off. THAT WILL NOT SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS. It may well lose you friends. Pissing people of will not help. And sometimes you can’t save the game. I’ve lost several games to antogonistic players who came into it looking for, well, nothing much excet the chance to ruin somebody’s day. In fact, I learned that one problem player whom I’ve complained about before on this board was the entire time looking specificaly to wreck my games*, and hence nothing I did could work.

*Never did find out why. He seemed to think that because I told him to knock his nonsense off when someone else was GM’ing, he had to “get me back.” of course, he was the one who wound up all pissed night after night, so color me :confused: .

If there’s gotten to be a problem, first step is to talk to the players, not just dump on them.

Now as far as magic items go, the basic fact of the game rules is that many items can probably be found in any village in the countryside. According to the DMG, a very high portion fo the population has a 1, 2, or 3 levels of some spellcasting class. So things like Cure Light potions and so forth are cheap and easy to get (and probably everyone lives in nice, neat houses and is a lot cleaner than actual peasants).

Even +1 or +2 magic weapons are likely available in any larger town, though they may nto be exactly the form (longsword, greataxe) you want unless you let somebody take the time to make it for you. Beyond that, you’ve still got the accumulated treasures of thousands of years of history most games have in magical junk. Whether you want to let people go for higher-level stuff is a function of whether or not higher-level NPC’s feel like burning XP for magical goods.

Whoa, just noticed this thread was still going.

Hmm, where to start.

Yes, I do need to buck up a bit. I’m naturally non-confrontational, and I can be fast talked into things I would disagree with if I had time to think. I’m working on it, and I hope this game helps.

I’ve got the Fey’ri mostly in hand. Some things have a hard time hurting him, but he’s just not that good an attacker. In the game last week he was grappled by a giant insect which then proceeded to gnaw on him, and failed to get through his DR. It was an amusing scene.

Fey’ri are practically unknown on Faerun, and those who do know of them think that they’re very evil. He looks like a demon: wings, horns, tail, eyes, etc. But Fey’ri can alter shape at will, so he can look like any humanoid he wants. There is at least one group that concerns itself with Fey’ri, and he will eventually screw up. It’s not as bad as I thought.

The Heartwarder is going to have a stupidly high charisma (and very high save DCs), but shouldn’t be a problem either.

I’m currently dragging the group into the next storyarc, and it’s proving easier than I thought. My players are not very thorough, and so miss clues and stuff. They have a tendency to just push through to the important thing and ignore anything other than what they think they’re supposed to be doing. It’s annoying to have to keep moving clues around. This time they’ve done a few things that make my job much easier. It’s kinda nice for a change.

Had a player do something very unexpected last game. Previously, the players went into this old smuggler’s hideout deep under the city and sorta cleared it out. There was a door with a magical ward on it holding something in, and they elected not to bother it. At the end of the dungeon was a dragon, which had lots of copper pieces the PCs left behind. So after the most recent game, one of the players decides he’s going to go back down for them and not tell anyone. He proceeds, thinking the place is nice and empty. He doesn’t know that another group has been down too, and they freed the demon being kept behind the door, and were all killed by it. So he gets to the treasure, sees that some of it is gone, takes, whats left, and as he’s leaving he attracts the wandering demon’s attention. He takes off running for the exit, with the demon behind him. He makes it to the surface with the demon not to far behind him, casts invisibility, and takes off running. The demon busts out of the entrance and goes on a rampage, and is brought down by the city guard. This character goes back to his inn, and the next day takes the loot to a temple of Ilmater and hands it all over. None of the other characters knows what happened. A few of them are good and probably won’t like it. I’m still deciding how to play this. It’s generally considered a Bad Thing to release a demon, even in Waterdeep.

I always wanted to GM Toon (in the game’s parlance, I’d be “the animator”) but we could never get enough people together for it.