None about disruptive adults. Note: this is neither a parody of anything, nor is it intended to make fun of adults. This is totally serious.
Restaurants exist where I, personally, have seen adults behave worse than any child you can imagine. No, I’m not just talking about the not-yet-drunken slob who decides it is his constitutional right to pinch the waiter (female or male)'s butt. I’m talking about places where the guy (again, not yet drunk) decides the entire restaurant needs to hear what he has to say about nothing in particular . . . even the people outside. And everyone has to hear how horrible X thing is, or how kids got no respect for their elders today . . . while this cretin is talking about this, he doesn’t realize his food is being turned into a bacteria-infested sludge pool in the kitchen.
Surprise surprise, he finds his food is not to his liking (by now people are drawing straws in the kitchen for the pleasure of killing him by means of some unnamed toxic thing). So he MUST complain to the entire floor about all he asks for is a little dignity, a little respect, a quiet little place where he can get good food and be left alone.
I’m not even going to talk about the fight that ensues here.
Anyone know of a child who could come close to causing this? Let me know.
My wife and I compared notes afterwards and had mostly the same take on the situation.
“Mom” had all of the makings of a winner. Mid twenties, attractive, shapely, good dresser. I didn’t pay her much attention as they walked in, but as I went to leave I took note of the people behind me and “mom” looked like someone that could stand out from the crowd.
I’d wager $100 that the two older kids were her kids by another man. Somehow she got mixed up with this clown, popped out his kid, and now daddy let’s the world revolve around his little boy and has zero tolerance for the other two.
Even more than the scene in the restaurant, I was bothered by what I feared was coming. I told my wife that he’s the kind of jerk that’s just been frustrated by someone that won’t take his crap so he’s going to go home and take it out on her. I hope that I was wrong about that part. I should have gotten their license plate number.
Like I said, she looked like a winner. Could have done a lot better than she did.
That’s a good idea for a new thread: Why do women get involved with and then refuse to dump such losers?
We’ve all had awful restaurant experiences. I remember one night in a near-empty foodeatery where I nearly had to drag the waiter away from his booth of co-workers sitting around talking about dope smoking in order to get my check.
However, as a restaurant manager, I have a load of pet peeves revolving around the customer:
Waitresses are here to serve food. They are not prostitutes. Ask any waitress who has done any considerable time around the tables about how often customers are confused about this.
The children problem has been discussed here. It’s all too true. I had a tot in the restaurant the other day who for nearly 1/2 hour shrieked “Guess what? Monkey butt!” over and over and over while his mother basically ignored him. Then there’s the massive mess to clean up after the family leaves. (this is not true of all kids or even most, but boy it sure does happen a lot!)
Adults who leave their tables in that same tornado aftermath condition. Unfortunately, this is also not rare.
Customers whose math skills did not include figuring out 15%, and therefore leave 5%.
The behavior of drunks is not particularly funny. Such “funny” behavior generally turns to anger when refused more alcohol.
People who eat their whole meal before deciding it was bad and refusing to pay.
Customers who treat the wait staff as their personal slaves, not their servers. Such folks tend to be cruelly condescending toward the staff. They’re customers so they must obviously be better than the staff.
Customers who insist belligerently that the prices have gone up even though the menu has been the same for 3 years. (Hence they refuse to pay a tip because the new price is so high)
Customers who insist the recipes have changed when they have not. We all know that with humans preparing food there may occasionally be some slight difference in the final product even though we work hard to avoid this at the restaurant. However, I know the vegetable soup never had chicken–as we are a vegetarian restaurant. Of course this means no tip.
Did I mention the sexual harrassment of the wait staff by customers, oh yes I did. It’s especially great when they find your home phone number.
Some really great wait staff members, chefs, and restaurant people tough it all out because they love their jobs and most customers are great. But an awful lot leave. How much would each of you all have to be paid to be a waiter or waitress?
Because some women think THEY are the loser if they don’t have a man in their life. They have to be able to say they have a boyfriend, even if he’s a jerk.
I was involved with a real loser (my ex-husband, the Shrimp), but I had the sense to get out when things got violent.
My (current) husband was also involved with a real loser; a gold-digging shrew. She dumped him for someone with more money.
Lucky for me, I snatched him right up. He’s not rich, but he’s a great guy.
That’s a rational theory. Dovetails in well with something that I’ve learned.
It’s depressing to learn how many women have been abused. Sexually, physically, and/or mentally. The abuse robs the woman of her feelings of self worth.
In virtually every case (that I’m aware of) of a woman being in a “bad relationship”, the connection is sex.
Subconsciously, the woman “controls” the abuser with sex. She can generally control when, what, and where they have sex thereby controlling the abuser. Of course, after “the act” she feels guilty and is back in the downward spiral.
And congratulations on snapping up a “keeper” when he became available. I got my wife much the same way.
No one would want to have to hear a toddler yelling throughout a meal, especially in a restaurant that must have fairly quiet otherwise (being, as you described it, almost empty). Sounds like an ugly scene, and you got a reaction that was way out of proportion to anything you’d done. At the risk of having this trend even further Pit-ward, however, I’d like respond to what you’ve said.
In its barest outline, the story is: jerk brings child into a restaurant, where the kid raises an unholy row with no real attempt to defuse it by the parents, whereupon you make a comment that is both critical of the jerk and audible to him. Jerk reacts negatively and inappropriately to the comment.
From this, you deduce that children should be sequestered from other restaurant patrons. Forgive me if I suggest that there are perhaps other conclusions to be drawn.
I’m sorry if my tone seemed condescending, or if you felt chastised by my questions. Tone and nuance is difficult to convey in this medium. My question, “what did you expect?”, was not entirely rhetorical; I really hoped you’d consider it seriously. While the jerk’s reaction was inappropriate, certainly you had sufficient evidence on hand to conclude that (A) he was a jerk, and (B) no positive reaction was likely. Indeed, the best outcome I can conceive of in such a situation, even given an extremely mild-mannered and tolerant person on the other side, would have been an awkward silence on the part of everyone except the troublesome tike. Given that, the only thing I can see that you stood to gain was some sense of being somehow superior to the guy with the kids. No doubt you are, but not merely because he has kids and you don’t.
You might also consider that your suggestion of “no-children” sections of restaurants makes “having children” the moral and social equivalent of “smoking cigarettes in the presence of other people who do not wish to smoke”, thereby suggesting that bringing a child into a restaurant should be met with the disapprobation we now accord smokers (i.e., it’s a dirty, nasty, disreputable, socially unacceptable habit that should be done, if at all, in places out of the sight, hearing, and breathing space of others). If I suggested the same thing about tall people (i.e., that they should be viewed with disdain and segregated from the rest of us merely because they’re tall and not because of anything they’ve actually done), might you not feel it was your ox being gored and wish to speak up in your own defense? Is it not possible that your tone might be something less than entirely complacent? Before you answer, I invite you to consider these quotes:
While I may have come across as condescending, I don’t think you’ll find anything as confrontational in my posts.
As a parent, I frequently encounter a certain smug superiority on the part of those without kids, the attitude being, “I suppose there’s nothing you can do about the fact you engendered these things, but can’t you get them out of my sight?” I find this attitude as offensive as these people seem to find children, but I endeavor not to take it personally. Your original comment, and your defense of it following the first several responses, however, seemed to me another expression of this mindset, and in a forum for public discussion such as this one, I felt compelled to speak up in contradiction to it, and to point out what I considered the deficiencies in your argument.
In passing, I might also observe that in my experience, the reaction of other patrons to our children correlates very poorly with their actual behavior at the time. At times when they’ve misbehaved (in comparison with their usual standard), I’ve had compliments on their behavior. At times when they were behaving perfectly, I’ve been on the receiving end of scowls and significant, dirty looks. I’ve concluded that the attitude of other patrons toward children is a more significant factor than my kids’ conduct.
I pulled a tour at Cracker Barrel during my college days. (For those out of the know–Cracker Barrel serves good homestyle country cookin’, and is usually located next to an interstate. If you’ve ever gone anywhere on a church bus, odds are good that you stopped at a Cracker Barrel.)
There are many parents out there (although by no means all, or even most) who think that since they’re going to a “family” establishment like Cracker Barrel or Shoney’s instead of, say, Applebee’s, that their kids don’t have to behave themselves. They don’t really encourage or discourage their little hellions as much as they try to ignore them, and talk over their incessant high-pitched squeals. They figure that we just expect their spawn to scatter mashed potatoes over a six-foot radius around their table, so they don’t try to prevent it.
I personally don’t care if we’re talking about fucking McDonalds–if your kids can’t refrain from being demons for the length of time it takes to eat a meal, you shouldn’t be in a restaurant, period. That’s why the Good Lord created the drive-thru. Better yet, just procure a trough and line 'em up.
Note that this is not a rant against kids in general, or against those kids who are having a bad night and are genuinely trying. I have a hard time blaming the kids, period. The parents who let their kids act like banshees in a public eating establishment, though, should have something put in their food to render them sterile.
Another beef I had with kids and parents is when the parents insist that the child–often young enough that he should still be in the womb–order for himself. Ordering at CB is not quite like yelling “Gimme a #1” into the clown’s maw–you have to pick not only an entree, but a couple of side items from a lengthy list as well, and you even have to choose between biscuits and corn muffins. You might as well ask the fetus to explain particle physics. The result is usually a look of terror from the child as the squeaky mother says things like, “How about the shrimp, honey? You like shrimp! Look, they have chicken! You want fries, sugar? Huh? French fries? What about corn?” Good rule of thumb–if your child is still little more than an actively dividing blob of cells, order the hell for him. It’s all deep-fried in the same basket anyway–he won’t even know the difference.
My biggest pet peeve with the big multi-kid families in CB, though, was the tip. The average ticket at CB is well under $10, so the usual (and, IMO, correct) tip is $1 per person. A weird thing that I noticed, though, and that several of my comrades confirmed, was that many (probably over half) of the families that had kids would tip $1 per adult, and nothing for the kids. I can’t tell you how many times I waited on parties of six–two adults and their brood–and got a $2 tip. It pissed us off even more since kids are often more trouble to wait on, since adults rarely give you the aforementioned mashed potato splay (not to say it never happened). Furthermore, we noticed that the more unruly the kids were, the more likely the parents were not to tip for them. Another good rule of thumb in a “family restaurant”–tip as if the kids had ordered an adult meal.
I’m not condemning all kids or families–I really enjoyed waiting on well-behaved kids and their parents, and there were probably more of them than not. Believe me, I probably have more horror stories about adults. I still say, though, that if these parents and their kids don’t know how to act in a restaurant, they should go through the freakin’ drive-thru.
You make a good point Rackensack. Conveying one’s thoughts when it requires saying more than just “I like …” or “I don’t like …” is tough. And it’s certainly fodder for another thread to consider the decline of societal skills to the point that reasonably intelligent and articulate people are unable to communicate with words.
The “horror story” that I posted was intended to be just that. The worst dining event that I’ve ever experienced that wasn’t the fault of the dining establishment.
It’s not that I dislike kids. I don’t. I’m an uncle 7 times over, most of my peers have kids, I live in a “yuppie” family neighborhood that’s filled with children of all ages. I attend significant events in their lives, share stories with them, play with them, help them with their homework, etc.
My “problem” is that the adults that are supposed to teach these kids respect and consideration fail to consider how their “momentary lapse” fits into the big picture.
Your example: When a waiter drops a tray and startles half the restaurant, a quick hush comes over the place, some chuckles, some sympathy, and life returns to normal. As someone that eats out about a dozen meals a week, I trust that I’m qualified to say that it’s not a daily problem.
A parent might consider his/her child’s volume or attitude a problem “only on occasion”. Most of the time “he’s a good kid”. “He only acts up about 1 trip in 10”. “He hasn’t done this in weeks”.
Kids will be kids. But when you put 6 “well behaved” kids in the same restaurant at the same time there’s a pretty good chance one of them will pick that particular outing to act up. Then add the kids that are problem children and it becomes all but impossible to have a quiet setting.
And that’s all I’ve asked for. A venue where I can sit with my wife, my neighbor, a friend, a client, or just the crossword puzzle without having my spine turned to guacamole by the high pitched wail of a screaming kid.
I guess we’re just going to have to agree to disagree. You think that there’s nothing wrong with your children’s behavior – and you may well be right. And I think that the cumulative effect of putting children in 20% of the tables in a restaurant ultimately leads to finding a fussy kid and raising the volume above what I find acceptable – and I might also be right.
SouthernStyle
I realize that a certain amount of this is just venting about what must have been extremely trying situations. Nevertheless, the trough comment and the use of the word “spawn” later on have to be considered provoking. More importantly, they suggest exactly the underlying attitude that is so disturbing to me in this whole conversation: that parents ought to be able to proactively prevent their children from ever misbehaving. It don’t work that way, and only people who don’t have kids think that it does (or at least ought to). My kids, in eight or nine cases out of ten, can “refrain from being demons for the length of time it takes to eat a meal”. On those other one or two occasions, I have no more idea than you do that they’re about to act up; otherwise, I’d do something about it: take them for a walk in the parking lot, find some unobtrusive area with something interesting in it to look at, offer something else to distract or amuse them, etc. Believe me, my wife and I have spent several meals with one of us wolfing down food while the other takes the kid out of earshot of everyone else, then swapping places. But by your standards, I’m condemned to the drive-through or the trough, since I can’t guarantee that my kids won’t cause a brief disturbance or make a small mess. And that bothers me. A lot. Because I’m probably more acutely sensitive than anyone to how my kids’ behavior affects others, and I do everything I can to minimize problems. To have it suggested that no matter how successful I may be in doing that, I must remain banished from nearly all public places is very tough to swallow.
I don’t know what you consider “little more than a actively dividing blob of cells”, but once a kid’s past the second birthday, he’s going to have an opinion, quite strongly held in all likelihood, about what he eats. But I do consider it my job to have figured out what my son’s going to order before the waiter arrives (assuming I have time to do so) so that even if he orders himself I can make sure the server understands what he said and that I can order the sides and bread (in a CB-type place) myself. The server shouldn’t be expected to understand a three-year-old’s mumbled order, nor should he have to wait around while the kid decides. In my son’s case, if he doesn’t reply promptly on being asked by the waiter, I answer for him (I typically repeat what he’s said in any event).
As for tipping, I definitely factor the extra work required to fulfill requests we make that are not typical of tables without kids – extra napkins, etc. – and the greater amount of cleanup that’s sometimes required. And that’s over and above the 18-20% I usually tip. In the unlikely event of our eating in a full-service restaurant and having the check total less than $10, I’d certainly never tip less than $2. I can see some validity to your suggestion of a dollar a diner, and if the situation ever arises I’ll probably do just that.
Glad we could ratchet things back down a notch or two.
OK, I might only eat out six or seven times a week (four of those usually at lunch, by myself or with co-workers), so you’re perhaps more qualified to assess the usual standards for these things. My example was intended to be analogous to the level and duration of disruption I’d expect to be caused by the type of momentary misbehavior a parent can neither predict nor prevent. And my point was that as a parent, I hope for the same “quick hush . . . , some chuckles, some sympathy, and life returns to normal” in that event. My gripe was that you, and many other people, seem to regard the dropped tray and the kid suddenly getting excited about something and yelling briefly as being fundamentally different, with the latter being evidence of some moral and social deficiency on the part of the parents.
As several of us have pointed out, there are lots of places where you can do just that, places that manifestly discourage the presence of children and where any family with any sense of propriety will be distinctly uncomfortable. There are lots of other places that go out of their way to encourage families with small children, where the level of background noise from other patrons and the kitchen, etc., will mask most slightly-too-loud talking by the kids, and where there are menu selections tailored to them. I willingly accept that there are places where I’m not welcome with my kids, and as much as I might want to eat there I don’t do it if they’re with me. I don’t expect such establishments to change how they do business to accomodate me. But please don’t expect those that do accomodate me to stop doing so to accomodate you. You specifically mentioned (or contested someone else’s specific mention of) certain chains that manifestly do market themselves to families, suggesting that they were inappropriate for kids, and several of us pointed out that this was contrary to the chains’ marketing and service practices (i.e., that you were wrong in that respect). I wouldn’t have invested this much time and effort in this conversation if you’d been talking about places that were not intended to be family friendly – we could have peacefully each gone our separate ways. But (in a manner of speaking) you seemed to be trying to take away some of my territory, and I felt compelled to defend it.
I’d say we are both right, at different times and different places. If we differ, it’s about which times and which places.
When Mrs. ricepad and I take the little ricepads out for dinner, they’re pretty well-behaved. Mostly it’s because they know that if they act up, there’ll be hell to pay from Dad. It’s gotten to the point where they’ll comment on how poorly other kids are acting in the restaurant, at which we always make it a point to let them know how glad we are that they would NEVER act like that. Makes 'em feel pretty special…rewards good behavior…makes 'em want to keep doing it. Happy faces all around…
rackensack–I apologize if my tone was harsh. I just started ranting and didn’t stop. By “actively dividing blob of cells”, I was just exaggerating the really young age of these kids who are being forced to make food choices on the fly. The best thing for the parents to do in this situation might be a simple, “We could use a few more minutes.” Having me stand there while the decision process goes on 1.) wastes my time, 2.) puts pressure on Mom to get Junior to decide right now, and 3.) puts pressure on Junior to decide right now. It adds far too much stress to the dining-out experience for everyone involved. (I remember one kid who nearly had an anxiety attack during this process.)
I do not condemn you to the drive-thru or trough. I didn’t make myself clear enough by saying that the problem is not that the kids are misbehaving, but that the parents are allowing the kids to misbehave without attempting to do anything about it. They seem to think that since this is Cracker Barrel and not Chez Panisse, their kids don’t have to behave, so they don’t try to correct them when they squeal and throw things. I say that if you expect your kids to act like pigs in a restaurant, just keep them at home and build them a trough.
You, on the other hand, actually expect your kids to behave even in a “family” restaurant, and take action when they do not. In fact, from what I’ve read in this thread, you sound like a wonderful parent. I would wait on you and your family with pleasure (if I weren’t out of the business. ) I only wish I could say the same about everyone.
Many times, it makes sense to order dessert as soon as your entree is served - it will arrive right after dinner, and in the case of a souffler, they need at least 20 minutes to get it going. Just a thought.
What’s a comment card?
Some suggestions on how to prevent these peeves:
Make a reservation and tell them you’d like to be seated in a quiet area, or exactly where you’d like to sit if possible. If you give them more time to prepare for you, they’ll put you in a better spot.
Eat later. Very rarely have I seen kids in restaurants past 8:30 or so. You also are less rushed when they know you’re the last people to fill that table.
If you aren’t in a hurry, tell the server. Waiters have told me that lots of people expect to get drinks, appetizers, entrees, desserts, boom, boom, boom, and then go. Any pause in the action and they’re annoyed by how “slow” the service is. I find it’s a lot more pleasant to ask politely, when placing an order, “Can you tell the kitchen we aren’t in a rush? We’d like to take our time,” than to spent $100 on a meal and find that I can’t remember what I ate because it flew by so fast. Only once has this backfired on me; the waitress virtually ignored us and when we commented on that, she said “I thought you wanted to be left alone.” Obviously, if you are in a hurry, say that too. Can’t hurt.
A couple I know swears by ordering their appetizers, then eating them, then ordering their entrees. I don’t know why, but they say they get more attentive service and feel less rushed out the door. Try it and let me know what you think.
) I only wish I could say the same about everyone.