A friend doesn't like telling women she was a pilot

To me, gal isn’t particularly offensive in the context of Happy’s post. But if some male exec or other power position says, “you gals…” then it sounds a little minimizing and I wouldn’t like it.

Yeah, I’m also thinking she might be misreading things or overgeneralizing. I have no trouble believing that a few women would have some sort of “That’s not an appropriate job for a WOMAN!” reaction, but I can’t believe that *most *women would feel this way or that it would be *only *women who would feel this way.

My own reaction would be something like “Oh, that’s interesting. I’ve got a good friend whose dad was an Army helicopter pilot too, I wonder if you ever met.” Thinking of my own female coworkers I can’t imagine any of them having a stronger or more negative reaction than “Huh, you’re probably the only person here who was ever a helicopter pilot!”

That said, I’m wondering if maybe whatever negative reaction she may have gotten was not so much because she was a pilot but because she’s a nurse who used to be a military pilot. I think these professions would strike many people as being pretty much the opposite of one another and that the common assumption would be that totally different personality types would be attracted to these fields. So finding out that the same person has done both jobs might make some people think “Wait, what? That makes no sense!” and a few might even go on to conclude “Either she’s lying or she’s some kind of freak.”

Maybe this.

Johnny, you know I’m a civilian pilot - most women are indifferent to OK with my hobby, but I have occasionally encountered some surprising hostility. I am baffled by it myself. There’s probably more than one reason but “It’s not proper” has come up, as has various other excuses:

“It’s too dangerous”
“You’ll stop doing that once you have kids, right?”
“It’s selfish of you to spend so much on yourself.”
“You’re husband lets you do that?” (Husband’s reply is “I can’t stop her - she’d knock me down and leave footprints on my on her way to the airplane”)

In some cases, there might be concern that I will “steal” their man (Nope - one is quite enough for me). Or I’m somehow a slut for spending so much time with men I’m not married to. In some cases there might jealously that I have been able to do something that maybe they couldn’t due to finances or family pressure.

I don’t know about the lesbian angle - I get mistaken for lesbian so often I can’t attribute it to my status as pilot, or at least not solely to that. It might be a factor.

Most women don’t seem to care, or think it’s neat, but like I said there are a few extremely hostile types out there.

Whoah, can you expand on that? Do you look like Annie Lennox (who definitely isn’t lesbian :D) or something?

I have heard of men being mistaken for gay, but that is basically because they haven’t been being sexually aggressive enough - for the peanut gallery - in certain situations - and that massively depends on the crowd (I know some very, er, searching for right word… hyper-manly men, and also practically asexual cambridge professors), but never heard it credible.

Why they say that?

My friend had a cousin who thought I was gay because I wear an earring. She and I had quite a laugh about that.

The more I think of it, the more I suspect that the reactions she’s had is because she was living in areas where most people were not highly educated, tended to be church-going conservative types (especially the women), and expected people to fit into the roles they were brought up in.

I am a female and would have no problem with a female pilot. If anything, my problem would be wanting to hear war stories, but being too private myself to ask about them. It seems almost rude, and that cognitive dissonance would probably make me seem uncomfortable :stuck_out_tongue:

My hobbies, mostly, and sometimes my job. I gravitate towards male-dominated interests. I’ve gotten used to being the only woman or two in a group of 20 to 100 men. It’s not as bad as it was, say, 30 years ago - there are still some sexist bastards out there but much less than there used to be. Due to such interests, I frequently dress in a “manly” way. For example, for the past couple weeks I’ve been part of a crew building a building. While there I wear what the men do: workboots, jeans, t-shirt or flannel shirt, the same safety equipment. That is, of course, because the clothes are dictated by the job. However, a workbooted, jeans-and-flannel outfit is also stereotypically lesbian for a woman in the US. So, yeah, sometimes people make assumptions. Likewise, when I was flying in the winter I"d wear the same cold-weather gear as the men, and would even be mistaken for a man on occasion despite my generous bust and hips. Partly it was the layers of clothing, partly it was the expectation that a pilot would be a man (given the ratio of male to female pilots it’s not an entirely unreasonable assumption in many cases). After the shock of "oh, it’s a woman" subsided I guess it was 50/50 if there’s be a kneejerk assumption of lesbianism, as if it was somehow understandable that a lesbian could be mistaken for a man, but it was unthinkable a hetero girl could be mistaken for one.

I’ve also been accused of being a transsexual as well.

Mostly, I just laugh it off. Those who know me well know that no matter how butch my clothing or occupation I’m very much heterosexual (which has disappointed a few lesbian and bi women of my acquaintance, but oh well…)

Interesting. That definitely wouldn’t happen here (there are other reasons women may be incorrectly thought of as being lesbian but not that) - I wonder if it’s because of the repressed sexuality in the US?

I look like a woman, even when I’ve got the bags on. I don’t recall anyone thinking I was a guy, although it must have happened somewhere along the line.

Come to think of it, I’ve got the lesbian implications over the phone, or by reputation, but not too much in person.

On the other hand, we love lesbians and gays for customers-every single one of them (that we know of) have been great homeowners.

What she said.

She’s not hanging around with the right women. I’m a pilot. Many of the women I know are pilots. We fixed wingers are all jealous of helicopter pilots because it’s sooooo expensive to become one.

I’ve met several of the original 99’s and quite a few WASP’s from WW2. They are one and all interesting. Either the women she meets are jealous or they are intimidated. Dang tell that girl don’t hide under a barrel. She’s got bragging rights.

IME, when someone claims that a great many of the people they meet have a problem with them, it’s often that they have the problem with themselves, and are projecting those feelings onto the others. It’s kind of hard to buy that the majority of women that your friend meets all have this strange animosity towards female pilots. Maybe your friend is projecting or somehow creating an animosity towards herself with body language or other non-verbal cues.

Used to be an ex air traffic controller- does that mean she is one again?

It’s probably not so much that lots of women have a particular reaction (what ever it is), but maybe just enough have to make her weary of of the topic.

My wife has said she feels intimidated when meeting some of my female work mates who are either pilots or other technical aircrew. I think it’s just a feeling she has that they are doing something she could never do, which is complete horseshit of course but that’s the way she feels. She’s not nasty about it or anything but maybe she and others like her give a standoffish vibe or they feel unable to make conversation or something. It probably doesn’t take many times having a conversation die an unnatural death after your friend tells someone she was a pilot before she becomes weary of it.

Another possibility is that she’s uncomfortable with all of the reactions she gets, good and bad. A lot of the posters here have been saying that they’d think it was really cool, well maybe she’s not particularly comfortable with that either. Flying in general, and probably military flying more so, is a subject that a lot of people have preconceived ideas about but very little solid knowledge outside the passenger experience. Talking to someone about it can be difficult because the layman is missing a vast amount of background knowledge. This knowledge either has to be given during conversation or skipped. You walk a fine line between patronising them and talking over their head. If she’s had a few bad experiences with it she may just find it easier to not bring it up unless she has to.

There’s also the political aspect of being a military pilot. She may have had people making assumptions about her politics based on her military service or perhaps steering the conversation in directions she’s not comfortable with.

Have we touched at all on how gendered aviation is? It’s just as masculine a world as the military, IMO. Aviation since WW2 has become highly technical, commercial, and regulated - ie, masculine-gendered in more ways than simply flying a plane would indicate. Who knows, maybe the example of the WASPs inspired some subconscious need to reclaim the skies for the organization man.

Besides the technology, flying has a set culture. Male pilots in any sector also tend to be more math/engineering focused, more politically conservative, and more socially conservative than men in the same income brackets. I would imagine female pilots would be the same way vis à vis other women. The culture of danger (real or imagined) also helps inspire a military, ie masculine, style of thinking even when one is not a veteran, and a greater portion are vets than in the general population.

Cites? My google is my cite.

Also, are you sure that your friend doesn’t come off as bragging?

She may just be (rightly) proud of what she’s accomplished, but if you have a cool job it is hard to avoid sounding like a jerk.
e.g. You say what you do, then out of politeness the other person asks a question about it. Then, where most people (who hate their jobs) would give a stock / jokey answer, you give a real answer because you love your job. Result = other person may think you’re self-obsessed.
On the other hand, men are more likely to be into this stuff, and find this real answer fascinating.

I used to have a cool-sounding job, and I got into the habit of being vague about what I did, until the other person showed enough interest to tease out the specifics.

Most people with any military training will have trouble being vague. It’s met with sharp rebuke in that context. She may instead resort to being abstract - lots of shop talk and acronyms - which doesn’t “tease out” but erects a conversational wall.

I’m not sure what she should do, really - I don’t know her or her personality. I just know that certain experiences change you in ways that are not in your control, and combat service has got to be number one on the list, with military training of any kind a ways down as well.

She’s never been a braggart. She’s always been pretty modest.

I once dated a woman who, while not flying military planes, was proficient enough to be a certified private flight instructor as a hobby.

Before I knew that, I just thought she was a hot blonde bimbo. Did I mention she was hot?

Then when I found out what she did on weekends, I was impressed. Now she was smart and skillful, too. And still a hot blonde, but maybe not a bimbo anymore.

In short, I found it a turn-on, but maybe that’s because I had flown a few times myself, and we had something in common to talk about. Away from bed, that is.

Perhaps she projects a confidence level that some women are uncomfortable with. Some women (and men too!) are easily intimidated and they might feel that her confidence might be matched with an ego just as substantial. So, they shy away, fearful that they’ll be made to feel inadequate.

I would be interested in talking with a female pilot, though — or a pilot of any gender. It’s such a thing out of my everyday life that I find it completely fascinating. (Is it like driving a car … but fewer things to run in to? :smiley: )