A Kosher Question

I think General Questions is the correct forum for this.

I am having a business guest to my house for dinner (a client) who is Jewish. I am not.

I asked him if there was anything he couldn’t eat, and he said no. But I was informed by one of his colleagues that he is ‘observant’, and I don’t want to serve anything non-kosher or wrong.

I don’t know what the parameters are for ‘observant’, if that corresponds to Orthodox/Reformed/whatever the other distinctions are. He is a native Israeli. I have not met him face-to-face, only phone conversations.

I am not sure what I should serve for dinner. I know pork and shrimp are out, and I could get (I think) beef or other meats from a kosher butcher, but I am informed that my kitchen is non-kosher because we don’t have separate dishes for meat and dairy. (This I got from another colleague whose family is Orthodox.)

The same colleague says there is something I can do to kosher-ize my kitchen so I can use it, but that it is a big deal. I considered grilling outdoors, since I don’t think I have ever done dairy on my barbeque. Would that be OK?

Or is there an exemption for Jews eating in a Gentile house?

If any Jewish dopers could recommend a menu, I would be grateful.

I apologize in advance if any of this sounds offensive or stupid, which is not my intent.

Thanks in advance for any assistance.

Regards,
Shodan

The range of what is meant by “observant” is very very wide. I would say, don’t worry about it and don’t go by what someone ELSE told you. You asked him directly if there was anything that he couldn’t eat, and he said no. That means that you need not worry about it.

BTW, nowadays, with so many people allergic or on special diets or vegetarian/vegan, it’s always a good idea to ask people who are coming to dinner about any diet restrictions … religion aside.

If you are still worried about it, serve a vegetarian meal or some kosher fish (such as salmon or halibut or scrod – not shellfish, and there are other non-kosher fishes to avoid.)

If he kept traditional (orthodox) kosher, he would not be able to eat in your home, period. The effort to make your house kosher would be extremely costly, involving all new dishes, pots, etc.

The word “observant” as used in a non-orthodox setting can mean a wide variety of things. I would classify myself as “observant” (conservative-style) but I’m not obsessive about it, and I would never insult or upset a host by commenting on what they served me. If they asked, I would tell them to please avoid shellfish or pork.

Bottom line: the rules of kosher are many and complicated, developed over thousands of years (literally), and way way too intricate to go into here. If you asked him directly and he said he’d eat anything, then don’t worry about it. If he had any diet restrictions, he would have told you.

Thank you for the fast response!

I am glad to hear that salmon is OK. I was thinking of grilled marinated salmon, a green salad with mustard vinegraitte, baked potatoes, baked squash with orange sauce, and fresh bread. Not sure about a dessert yet.

My thanks again for your assistance.

Regards,
Shodan

Sounds yummy.

See, if he were really traditional orthodox kosher, he wouldn’t eat grilled salmon because you probably have grilled pork ribs on your BBQ. That’s why I say, take him at his word and don’t sweat it.

I never thought of that - I have, and pork chops as well.

I don’t suppose cleaning it makes any difference.

I will take your advice - clean the grill, do the salmon, and not worry about it further. Thanks again.

Regards,
Shodan

Nope. There are ways you can kasher your grill (assuming it’s made of metal). However, a simple cleaning will not suffice.

Zev Steinhardt

To play it safest, you might wish to serve a dairy meal. (Finding kosher meats would be trickier esp. in regions with a low Jewish population, so best to avoid altogether.)

This means go vegetarian! Dishes like tuna salad or egg salad. Pasta and pasta salads are ok , too. Or, have an omlette night at your house! All fruits and vegetables are fine - no doubt. If you serve fish, fish is considered “neutral” (parve) and can be dairy. Flounder or salmon is a safe bet. Absolutely no shellfish whatsoever! Do NOT stuff the flounder with crab meat, either! Lox (smoked salmon) or herring is a nice treat, too. Smoked whitefish or whitefish salad is delicious, too! Small whitefish are known as “chubbies”, and is very popular with Jewish people…if your guest likes fish. Although, many of these suggestions can be expensive.

If you serve breads, make sure there is no animal fat in them, such as lard, although lard is less popular today. Cheeses are mostlikely ok, although some Jews argue about a certain enzyme used in various dairy products. I wouldn’t sweat this…this is more of a personal decision by your guest. (If you want to cover all bases, you can show him the labels of any products you serve, if he’s really concerned, but I doubt it.)

Lastly, you can serve gefilte fish (packaged in bottles or jars) which is a mix of ground-up whitefish and pike. Pressed into balls (for finger food eaten with a toothpick) or oblong “mounds” (for lack of a better word), the latter may be served over a lettuce leaf. Horseradish is the dip of preference to spice up these kinda bland, but still tasty, fish balls. Also, ask your grocer for “Tam Tam” crackers which complement the gefilte fish, or can be used to make small sandwiches for fish spreads such as whitefish or a herring salad.

Humus (groud-up chick peas into a paste, or fried into balls) is good, too. You may be familiar with falafal (sp?), no? This is basically a pita containing balls of fried, ground-up chickpea rolled into a ball and stuffed with lettuce and diced tomato and maybe diced onions - whatever you prefer…almost like a vegetarian gyro! Bordering in the Greek’s style of eating, it is a germain to the Middle East/Meditaranian region.

Watch out for products which seem harmless, like cream of brocolli soup which has a chicken or beef broth base. Also, make sure vegetable soup IS vegetarian vegetable soup. Make sure baked beans are vegetarian baked beans (i.e.: not in a sauce containing a hidden pork product in the sauce, typ.)

As for dessert: Stay away from desserts containing gelatin such as all jellies, Jello, or marshmallows. Jams and preserves are ok. The kosher form of such gelatin-containing foods are hard to find depending where you live. Fruit salad is fine, but avoid marshmallows such as in Watergate salad or ambrosia, I believe. Again, watch for lard in baked goods.

Oh, one last note! While fresh grapes are fine, avoid all grape products such as wines, grape juice, and grape jelly, jam, or preserves. This is because, supposedly, grapes are considered holy and follow even stricter laws of “kosher”.

Don’t let all this detail scare you off! There are symbols on the package to guide you: Except for fresh fruits and fresh veggies, the general rule is to look for items marked with a “(U)” symbol (pronunced as “OU”). This means the product has been produced under obseravtion of a rabbi belonging to the Union of Orthodox Rabbis. There are many other symbols such as an (K) (pronounced “OK”). A “K” by itself it often debated. Often, the food manufacturer puts this symbol on their product to say, in their opinion, the product is kosher. I think I once read there are now over 100 symbols to mark a food “kosher” representing various local and national groups of rabbis!

I think that covers it! Whew! (Now, why bother eating after all that, right?) Good luck! - Jinx

Not a bad coverage of the topic Jinx, but this paragraph’s a bit troublesome. If Shodan heats up the soup in his non-kosher pot, that would make the soup non-kosher as well.

A cold meal, however, as you described, using paper/plastic plates and utensils would suffice. But I don’t know if you want to serve your business client that way.

Zev Steinhardt

Well, if you’re going to do a meat meal, conversely you need to make sure there are no hidden dairy products in the other dishes, i.e. no milk inthe bread, non-dairy margarine rather than butter for the potatoes, etc.

When in doubt, Ask The Rabbi

zev:

Actually, most barbecuers - at least those of us with propane grills - routinely “burn out” their grills before cooking a new meal, by turning it over and turning up the heat to maximum for 5-10 minutes. Wouldn’t that qualify as libbun?

Mine is just an old Weber kettle grill, that I clean with steel wool.

I last cleaned it at the end of the summer, although I use it during the winter.

I hope I don’t offend him - he is a really nice guy, and has been very helpful to me, since he knows the legacy systems really well.

This is more complicated than I thought.

Regards,
Shodan

Do you have to entertain at home? Maybe take him out to a kosher resturaunt?

Zev Steinhardt

I thought of that, zev, but it felt more hospitable to invite him to my home. That is also why I didn’t want to serve a cold meal, or order in from a restaurant.

Plus, I like to cook. Like I say, he is a really sweet guy, and he has gone out of his way to be helpful to me, and I invited him to my home while he is in town.

Another thing that occurred to me while I was looking at the website that Amfet supplied, is that I and my family are practicing Christians. We always say grace before meals.

I had a non-denominational grace worked out which I was going to use. Is there a rule against praying with non-Jews? I wasn’t going to mention Jesus specifically, and it is very short and simple. He doesn’t have to leave the table while we do this or anything, does he?

Regards,
Shodan

Well, if he’s observant, he’s going to say his own blessings before he eats regardless of whether you and your family say them as well. These blessings are short, one-sentence prayers which he may simply recite in an undertone.

As for grace, that may be a trickier issue. Why not simply allow a minute for private grace? That way he can say his prayers, you can say yours, and everyone’s happy.

Zev Steinhardt

I disagree with this characterization.

Not being derived from animals, grapes are not a problem in the sense that, say, shrimp or pork would be.

But because of the prohibitions against idolatry, and the fact that wine was used in pagan worship, there is a prohibition against consuming grape products made by a non-Jew. Indeed, even an otherwise kosher wine would not be permitted if poured by a non-Jew.

So it’s not that grapes are particularly holy in Jewish eyes. To avoid the danger of consuming a product that was intended for idolatrous purposes, observant Jews are prohibted from using grape products.

As has been suggested above, I think you’ll be fine taking the man at his word; you cannot serve a completely kosher meal yourself without a great deal of effort.

  • Rick

Actually, there’s nothing “un-Christian” about the *Birkat ha-mazon *; I think inviting your guest to say the blessing before and after the meal would be very appropriate.

  • Rick

This is turning into an IMHO, but…
I’m with Dex on this one. Jinx and the others have brought up many good points, but you asked him point-blank if there were any restrictions and he said no. I think the meal you’ve planned will suffice. Mind if I stop by? :slight_smile:
About the “observant” remark, it means too many different things. If he kept traditional kosher, as Dex said, he probably wouldn’t have accepted the invitation.
And the non-denominational grace is probably OK too. The biggest difference with Jews is that they say short blessings before the meal and the “grace” afterwards, but I doubt he’d have to leave the table or anything.

I like this idea.

I was going to have wine with dinner, but apparently grapes are out. Maybe a plum wine, instead, but let him pour his own. Or pop, or water, or whatever else we have that he would like.

I think I will e-mail him, tell him the menu, mention again that I don’t know how to keep kosher, and if he says OK, leave it at that.

Thanks to you all.

Regards,
Shodan

As Bricker pointed out, the issue on grape products isn’t over grapes, or even wine, but particularly over wine for ritual use.

Kashrut treats grape products (jams, juices, etc.) just like any other fruit product. All else being equal, a grape wine and a plum wine prepared through comparable processes and served in comparable glasses should have the same kosher/trayf status.

But when you get into ritual usage, the question shifts from the cleanliness of foodstuffs to the purity of worship. I’ll skip over the rules and provide the answer that matters: A kosher “mevushal” wine retains its ritual purity and kosher status even when handled by a non-Jew. (The mevushal process includes boiling the wine, and I don’t know what else.)

Ultimately, Shodan, if you’re not sure how kosher-observant your guest is, ask him. On the face, your suggested menu (early in the thread) seems fine to me.