Donar, do not post entire copyrighted articles. You may post small portions of such articles with a link to the full article, but we take copyright very seriously here on the Straight Dope Message Board.
Lynn
Administrator
For the Straight Dope
From one of donar’s links:
“Cite”, meet “grain of salt”.
Actually what I am posting is mostly fact. Unfortunately I don’t have the exact sources to show you due to a harddrive crash.
I am not blinded. I believe the reason the department is there is good, it’s how they do things that i don’t agree with. And focusing on the “fuckups” is the most important thing I can do right now because childrens lives are at stake. By focusing on the “fuckups” a solution can be found. By making people aware of them the department will in time be forced to abide by their own rules and abide by state statutes.
Your wording was just fine. I don’t expect everyone to know or understand my story until I tell it.
I don’t see how I have anything but facts on my site. As stated before, my site is there as a teaching tool for other parents. My entire case is on there including scanned copies of all pleadings and orders. It is there so other parents can learn about the legal aspects of a dependancy case and what they can do without actually getting nail for unlicensed practice of law.
My wife is in the legal industry. She has handled all legal dealings with the department and so far every case has been dropped by the department on the grounds that they shouldn’t have gotten involved in the first place.
I cannot and do not accept any responsability for the content on the links. They are not controlled by me. Unfortunately in doing research you have to weed through the nonsense. And unfortunately as someone has stated before, there are a bunch of religious zealots involved with fighting the department. Grain of salt is very true. And for the record, the quote posted is not my opinion. If I believe you have the right to lead your childrens lives as you wish then why wouldn’t I believe you have the right to run your own life as well.
Except they were posted by you, as proof of your opinion. You cannot post drivel and expect us to weed through it all - if you’re trying to prove your “facts” YOU have to wade through the drivel and provided reputable information.
If you link to junk, it will be percieved as junk and disregarded. Further, if you link to junk, any arguements that you make with the junk as your proof will be dismissed.
So - to sum up. You ARE responsible for the cites you link to as proof of your arguement.
First, trublmakr, well done! Intervention when parents abuse children is absolutely necessary.
Second, donar, my 10 cents. I was born and raised in a county where DSS was truly obnoxious – “social workers” whose primary interest seemed to be in building their own egos by humiliating their clients, and lining their own pockets, or those of the agency, at the expense of anyone required by a court to pass funds through them. My wife and I’ve seen some truly horrible miscarriages of justice perpetrated at their instigation. Foster care is particularly disgusting – my wife spent 18 months in their custody in her late teens, as a result of her parents’ bad judgment in dying before she turned 18.
However, that does not hold true for most of the country. People are, by and large, involved in the provision of services for children because they care and want to do the best, as they see it, for the kids in question.
I think it’s vitally important to document cases of abuse and improper conduct by power-hungry bureaucrats and abusive “caregivers.” But I think it’s equally important not to tar the entire world for the actions of a small minority.
Think that through. I have no doubt that you have justifiable complaints, and have documented others. But don’t be quick to be pointing the finger at the social workers of Random County CPS – you don’t know whether they’re the good guys or the bad guys. Places you’ve formed a definite opinion on, for good reason – and checked out both sides of the story – please bring them to public attention! Bad publicity is important to getting abusive situations changed.
However, take a deep breath, and acknowledge that people are not interested in paying taxes to support abusive situations – and that in general, people do care. Maybe they don’t agree precisely with your assessment – and maybe they’re wrong, or maybe your assessment is wrong. I know Norinew – I have very little doubt that her witness to what her county’s agency did is on target. And I will cheerfully point you to a case of just the opposite.
Sorting out wheat from chaff is tough. But it’s the only honest way to handle this. Because the important thing is the kids.
::applauding wildly for Polycarp::
As stated, there are many religous zealots out there that are in on the same fight I am. Their sites may contain opinions I do not agree with. When I posted those links I did so so that others may check them out for the FACTS. I did not post them so people asking for facts could come back and attack me for someone elses opinions. And no I am not responsable for the content of those sites. Those sites do contain actual facts. I’m sorry if you don’t feel like weeding through the drivel to get to the facts but I have already been spanked once for posting an entire article on this board. And if I were to only post a portion of an article on here and the source someone would simply go to the source to read the rest and attack me for some other content found. Use your brain please. If I post a link telling you there are facts there then don’t come back to me about the opinions therein.
I do believe I have said that the purpose of the agency is a good one. Yes, there are very real cases of abuse out there that need to be delt with. However the department has shown corruption throughout the country. Yes there are individuals within that are and do good. The issue isn’t the individuals though. The issue is the whole picture. One thing people don’t understand is in every state the department runs on it’s own set of rules. For example: If there is a warrent to search your home for …say… stolen goods and when that warrent is enacted they find evidence of other crimes those cannot be used against you. However, when it comes to dependancy they can be used against you. As well as superficial evidence. Dependancy hearings are civil hearings and therefore everything, requardless of it’s merrit is admitted and accepted as fact. I encourage you all to attent a dependancy hearing sometime. I don’t expect any of you to completely understand until you have dealt with it first hand. And as I had stated before, Arnold changed the laws in California in respect to dependancy for a reason. As it stands in all other states the department gets a bonus for every child they put in foster care or adopt out. But they get nothing for keeping families together. That is their motive. If more states adopted laws like california then all of this would more than likely be a mute point.
Sorry, but that’s not how this board works. It’s on you to point out where the facts are. After all, you’re the one familiar with those sites, not us. You should already know where the facts are.
This is quite possible, especially if what you cite as a “fact” turns out to not be a fact after all. Another reason why it’s on you to provide direct links to your cites - it lets us decide if your cites have merit or not. Posting links and saying, “These sites have facts, you just have to find them.” is a good way to get the poeple here to stop paying attention to you and your claims.
BTW: donar, you might want to check out some of our other forums because posting only here in the Pit can get you booted. Just sayin’.
This will be my last post in here. Save the applause. I only hope I have encouraged some of you to look into things yourselves. My purpose here was not to flame or attack anyone yet I have been attacked. One thing that people here told me the most is to make sure I get both sides before picking one. Yet just about all here have already taken a side without knowing both sides. And when I pipe in I am attacked for not taking their side.
The person who started this thread did what they believe to be right, and that is her right. However the allegations she has mentioned were not illegal on the mothers part. That is my issue here. We all have our own standards of living and raising our family, and that is out right. This country started so people didn’t have to deal with being persicuted for thinking differently than the masses.
People asked for facts so I posted sites that contain facts and I was attacked for it. I never said that all those sites contained were facts, just that there are facts there. As adults you should be able to tell the difference between facts and opinion. I’m sorry there isn’t one definitive site out there with ALL the facts. This is something else I am working on creating so people won’t have to weed through religous drivel.
Just remember that the laws are different with dependancy and therefore is widly misunderstood because people are so use to our criminal system. Until me and my wife were wrongly dragged into it we were completely unaware it was different. In fact we supported the department completely until we learned how they work.
Our experience isn’t limited to our area. We are in constant contact with people across the country doing what we do as well as parents fighting for there children.
One last quick note. The department originally came about because a child was place in foster care and the foster parent abused that child. Not having any laws to handle this because it was the parents right to punish as they see fit another agency became involved. That agency was in place to ensure the health and well being of animals. So the department was formed all because of abusive foster parents.
Thank you folks for hearing me out and have a lovely holiday. Should anyone wish to debate further or obtain more information you can contact me at chris@dcfwatch.com. My contact info is also on my website http://www.dcfwatch.com.
Not paying attention to what I say is fine. But I do not like being attacked for someone elses opinion. I did not post DIRECT LINKS to SPECIFIC FACTS, my bad. However, if you want facts and not opinions then why are you commenting on someone elses opinion as though it were a fact I had listed. Maybe this site doesn’t work that way. Maybe people are too lazy to look through everything to find facts. That’s a shame. Luckily not everyone in this country is like that else we would be the most ignorant country out there.
Sorry, but you’re wrong on this. If the police have a valid warrant to search your home for say, a stolen Tv, and upon entering your living room they see an ounce of cociane sitting on your coffee table. that eveidence can be used agaist you. If the warrant is for a stolen necklace, and they find an ilegal weapon in a drawer, that evidence can be used agaist you. About the only way it can’t be used against you is if the police are searching for a large screen TV, and find evidence in a dresser drawer- that is the evidence was found in a place that the police had no business searching, becasue the object of the search couldn’t possibly be found there.
What exactly do you mean by
and
Of course, the rules are different than they are in criminal cases- you can’t be sent to jail on a neglect or abuse case. In NY, at least, hearsay is generally not admissable in a neglect or abuse case and I have never attende any sort of hearing where a judge automatically admitted evidence without determining if it was relevant and without makeing determinations as to the creibility of witnesses.
Cite, please. And while you’re at it, tell me which people precisely get these bonuses in their paycheck. It is very possible that local departments of social services receive more money per capita from the state and/or Federal governments for a child who is placed in foster care or who is adopted with a subsidy than for one who remains at home. It is also a fact that placing children in foster care or in a subsidized adoption is more expensive to the department of social services than leaving them in the home. A reimburesment of increased costs is neither a bonus nor an incentive.
Because you only provided a general link to the site in question, as if you were using the entire site as your cite. What you should have done is made a direct link, accompanied with an acknowledgement that you don’t agree with everything that site contains.
Not really. What you did was on par with telling us to use Google. At least Google will return somewhat relevant pages.