a little help with transistors please

I am just getting into arduino, electronics etc. There are lots of great tutorials online.
One of the circuits requires a transistor. The circuit didn’t work as expected and I decided to test all my components. I have spent about three hours trying to test transistors with confusing results.
Multimeter test - I set my multimeter to diode mode. I plug the black into COM and red into V. For an NPN transistor, I clip the red to the base. If I touch the black to either the emitter or collector I should get a reading. I don’t (off scale). Even transistors that are right out of the package don’t provide a reading. For a PNP transistor, I clip the black to the base and I should get a reading as I clip the red to either C or E. Off scale as well,
Circuit test - I made a simple circuit with an LED coming from 9V power in series with a 1000 ohm resistor. This connects to the collector. The emitter is connected to ground. The base is connected a 1000 ohm resistor and then to a 1.5V battery also connected to ground.
In most cases, the LED lights even without the battery being connected.

I could go on but right now I want to I just want to throw away a lot of apparently damaged transistors some of which had been used previously and some that were straight from a package (do they go bad?).

From your description the test circuit should work, but please post a schematic.

What transistors exactly are you using (what part numbers) and where did you get them from? Ebay is full of fake and salvaged parts, if these transistors are from ebay all bets are off.

Also, make sure that you’ve correctly identified the leads.

Here is a schematic I made online.
The left power supply in 1.5 V and the right one is 9V.
Also, I should have mentioned, the transistors get really hot when I do this. That can’t be good.

Some of the transistors are 3906. Those are PNP I think. Some are 3904, NPN. Some are bigger metal cylindrical transistors. I don’t know what they are.

There’s nothing wrong with the schematic.

The transistor shouldn’t get hot. Even if it is shorted internally, the two 1K resistors should limit the current to a few milliamps. The power dissipated on the transistor should be a few tens of milliwatts.

I believe you have mis-wired something and the actual circuit is not the same as the schematic.

Try making this much simpler circuit:

http://i63.tinypic.com/9sw9r7.jpg

No need for a base resistor, the 1K resistor limits both the base current and the LED current. If you disconnect the base wire, the LED should turn off.

You should be able to use a multimeter to read the diode voltage of one diode in the NPN transistor, bases to emitter But I don’t think it works for other junctions or transistor types.

Your LED’s are too sensitive to work as “on off” display. You are using them as current detectors … there’s always leakage … there’s always current.

You need to design a voltage detector… the LED turns on only if the voltage is enough… basically, put the LED in parallel with a resister … of the current is too small, the voltage is too small to drive the LED… all the current goes through the resister. If the voltage increases, the LED turns on.
You can have the transistor jam on if you saturate it, the unconnected base won’t discharge the saturation so it just stays on… The unconnected base is acting as an antenna and creating current base to emitter… The gain is around 400 ?

You want microamps at the base to turn on a current of milli Amps.

I’m not sure what that arrow is sticking out at the bottom.

That a ground symbol, but it’s unnecessary for that circuit.

As beowulff said, it is a ground symbol.

I generated that image with LTspice, it is a free circuit simulation program. Like all SPICE based simulators, it needs a ground reference point somewhere on the circuit, else it cannot run the simulation.

You can ignore it when building the actual circuit.

Fantastic. And if I remove the +ve lead to the base and touch it with my hand and the LED lights up, is it a PNP transistor?
Also, you mentioned leakage. Is it normal for the LED to glow a small amount without a base connection?

What transistence does your circuit call for?
(ducking and running)

I googled transistance and learned that it is a techno pop group and that it is something to do with gain, transistors. In other words, I have no idea.

I learned a lot from this activity.
Thank you.
About half of the transistors allowed current to pass without any connection to base. I threw them away. I assume that is what is meant by “leaky”. Others were less leaky so I kept them.
Those that I threw away passed the diode test mentioned in the OP so I think that test is unreliable. Also, these transistors that allowed current to passed without a base voltage were off scale in terms of resistance between the collector and emitter. This makes no sense to me so I am obviously missing something.
Any additional info would be greatly appreciated.

What transistors are you using? Where did you get them?

Assuming you’re using good 2N3904 transistors and they’re wired up correctly as per the posted schematic, the probable reason the transistors are getting hot when the base current is removed is that the base is picking up stray current elsewhere, probably from slightly conductive solder flux. This will be enough stray current to turn the transistor partly on (measure the voltage between emitter and collector to verify this), but not enough current to saturate the transistor properly. When fully saturated (or turned “hard on”) the collector-emitter voltage for a 2N3904 should be <100 mV (for a collector current of <30 mA).

Cure your woes by fitting a resistor between base and emitter and this will shunt away enough stray current to keep the transistor turned off when the base current is removed. About 10,000 ohms should do it. Cleaning the flux and dirt off your board with IPA and a toothbrush will also help.

There’s a chance the transistors that were binned might be OK after all. Fit that base-emitter resistor and dig them out of the bin.

Maybe this will help you.

If you have a typical forward biased transistor, and you start off with no current flowing into the base, initially as you first start injecting current into the base, nothing happens. This is called the “cutoff” region. Then, as you keep increasing the current into the base, you start getting current flowing from the collector to the emitter. While it’s a little non-linear at first, once things really get going, the more current you put into the base, the more current you get proportionally from the collector to the emitter. So in this region, called the “forward active region”, the transistor is acting like a current amplifier. The current from the collector to the emitter is equal to the current going into the base multiplied by the “gain” or “beta” of the transistor. Eventually though, the transistor saturates, and increasing the base current no longer increases the collector-emitter current. This region is called the “saturation” region.

If you are using the transistor as a signal amplifier, you want to bias it’s signal swings so that it stays in the linear part of the forward active region. If you are using the transistor as a digital switch type thing with only an on or off state, then you want to drive it all the way to cutoff when it’s off and all the way to saturation when it’s on.

Relating this back to your arduino, what you are typically going to want to do is connect the base of the transistor to the aduino through a resistor. The value of this base resistor isn’t critical. It has to be small enough that it allows enough current to flow when the arduino turns on to drive the transistor completely into saturation, but the resistor has to be large enough that it also prevents too much base current, which would damage the transistor. You’ll connect the transistor’s emitter to ground (common), then connect the device that you are turning on and off between the collector and the device’s positive voltage supply, often with a current limiting resistor in series with the device. When the arduino output turns “on”, then current will flow into the base, turning the transistor on, and current flows through the device, through the transistor (from the collector to the emitter), then into your “ground” (common). If you are measuring voltages, when the arduino output is off, it’s voltage will be low, and the transistor’s collector will float high since the transistor is basically switched off and it’s in a high impedance state. When the arduino turns on, it’s output will be high, the transistor will turn on, and the collector voltage will drop to a low value since the transistor is now in a low impedance state.

When you use a transistor like a switch, keep in mind that it’s not really a switch. It’s either high impedance or low impedance, not on or off. Transistors never switch completely on and become a conductor like a piece of copper, and transistors never switch completely off. They always leak. This can be an issue if you are driving something that requires very little current. The leakage from the transistor may be big enough that it turns the device “on” even when the transistor is off.

I hope this is helpful to you.

No, this is simply because your body is slightly conductive, so touching the base will turn the transistor ever so slightly on.

Yes, as others already mentioned, if the base is “floating”, ie not explicitly connected anywhere, it might pick up enough voltage from wherever and turn the transistor on.

Try this circuit, it is a better version of the first one:

http://i67.tinypic.com/dr77zd.jpg

When the switch is closed, a tiny current will flow through the 1 Mohm resistor, but it will be way too small to affect the circuit in any meanigful way. It will work exactly like the previous one.

When the switch is open, the 1 Mohm resistor will pull the base to the ground, effectively turning the transistor hard off. In that case, if you see even the slightest glow in the LED, there’s something wrong with the transistor.

These are random transistors. Most from old electronics kits but many came from an unopened Radio Shack package. All are at least 20 years old.

This is very helpful.
Is connecting base to ground through a resistor similar to the pull down resistor I have been using in button switches?
Is the leakiness a reason that LED’s might not be the best thing to test a transistor with?
When you say “collector voltage” do you mean with respect to ground? Is this assumed?