I don’t know how the women are where many of you are but I know here in Los Angeles some of them will tear your face off. If a woman attacks a man in any kind of dangerous fashion I think he is not only within his rights to knock her on her ass I think it is his duty to society.
On the other hand if a woman attacks a man slapping under no circumstances should he use a powerful type blow to stor her.Watch the longer version, which includes them walking through the hallway and her getting into the elevator.
That one also includes the slow-motion of the actual “attack” and punch. Id love for you to provide a link and a time stamp of where she slapped him. I’m not seeing it.
OK, so you’ve said she was “chasing and hitting” him, she “kept attacking him”, that he “gave her about the lightest hit a guy like him could have given” and so he “extended his fist.”
This is what I meant by your saying he “had” to hit her. In fact, I don’t see her chasing or hitting in the video at all. I see her move toward him and he punches her lights out.
In such situations, society takes a “Tom and Jerry” view.
Tom, the cat, is strong. Jerry, the mouse, is weak.
Therefore, society cheers when the mouse beats the cat but boos when the cat beats the mouse.
You can see where I’m going with this analogy.
Is it fair? No. But it’s how society thinks.
Society cheers because Tom is a jerk. He is always starting things he can’t finish, and trying to kill and eat poor Jerry. He is needlessly cruel and sadistic about it, with a huge grin on his face as he thinks he’s causing pain. Jerry charmingly laps him every time, and yes, it’s enjoyable.
FWIW, I always was a Tom supporter. 
But, this video is a good illustration of why a man should never hit a woman, no matter how justified he feels himself to do so. The strength differences are so much that it is always dangerous for the woman.
That an it’s a ungentlemanly and shitty thing to do.
Having seen the both videos, I believe he thought she was faking being unconscious. I am at pains to point out that I don’t know whether she was or not, and I have no reason to believe she was. Thing is, he’s not acting like he believes he knocked her out. He’s acting like he thinks it’s all bullshit.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
The difference in size and muscle between the two is similar to the difference of a regular guy and a three year old, ffs!
So then no, nobody here said he had to punch her, is what you’re saying.
I don’t think you have ANY basis for such a belief. How many people have you observed who just knocked out their fiance in an elevator, that you would know how people “act” when they know someone’s been knocked out?
That IS the one I watched.
Your wish is my command.
0:04 - She is first visible in the video, walking towards him.0:09 - She hits him in the face. It happens quick; you really have to pay attention.
NOW, let me say something. In the time since we were last discussing this, it has come to my attention that witnesses said he spit on her, and her hitting him in the face is in reaction to just having been spat on. And I think that’s a pretty understandable reaction, so based on that, I would say it looks like he started the whole thing and is pretty much an asshole. O.K.?
But that formula only works because the cat is bigger than the mouse. There are no cartoons where the mouse is a jerk and the cat is a hero for foiling the mouse. That would just be weird, right?
Somebody did say it was self defense.
In your analogy, who isMammy Two Shoes?
We were with a group of friends discussing this the other night. I asked everyone if they’d ever been punched in the face. None of the women had, and 3 of the 4 men had.
My friend, Don, told a story about when he was a college freshman back in the 80s. He and some friends had just gotten blammoed (on 3.2 beer!) for the first time in Don’s life. They were walking back to the dorms around 1am, and he was just itching to pick a fight with someone. So he saw this little squirrelly guy approaching, and began taunting him. His friends told him to knock it off, but he persisted. He got in front of the kid to block him from passing, and the next thing he knew, Don was on the ground with his contacts knocked right out of his head. He couldn’t see much, but he could make out the back of the shirt of the kid who’d decked him square in the forehead. It said “Miami Boxing Club” on the back.
We all had a good laugh.
So, yes, I’d say we all were in universal agreement that Don got what he deserved. When you act like an asshole, you should expect to be decked.
Now, had he been taunting his friends, then that would have been slightly different. Since they had a prior relationship with him, and knew that Don was acting out of character, they’d have been expected to show some restraint out of respect for that friendship. To a point.
The dynamics change quite a bit when you go across gender. Because men are innately stronger, they are taught and expected to show almost 100% restraint when it comes to dealing with women and children. Just like if you decide to own a Pit Bull or German Shepherd, you’re expected to have 100% control over that dog. A Chihuahua? Not so much.
As far as Ray Rice goes, I think that he grossly overreacted. He was presented with a level 2 threat and responded with nuclear force. Bad, bad form. I also think that his reaction immediately after he hit her COULD have helped his cause, had he shown immediate horror or remorse at what he’d done. Had he bent over her and kissed her and said he was so sorry, or gotten on the phone to immediately call for help, I think society would have judged him far more favorably. He didn’t. Instead, he dragged her like a sack of potatoes, with her dress hiked up, and showed such a degree of callousness that I actually gasped out loud a couple of times. Honestly, I’d have expected more tenderness towards a stranger than he extended toward his fiancée.
Glad you asked!
I was a bouncer for 7 plus years working in a variety of clubs from very small (50 people packed the place) to large (about 1200 patrons with 18 bouncers and six off duty police in the parking lots). Meet (Meat) Markets, Topless clubs, Gay clubs, biker bars, after hours bars you name it. I’ve also worked more concerts in more venues than I can recall.
I have observed or been involved in stopping, oh, at least a thousand fights in that time, and I’ve seen at least 350 people get knocked out in person over that seven years (understanding that that’s about one knockout every 5 working days. Sometimes two or three in a night, sometimes none in a week). I’ve seen it happen from in front, behind, beside, with and without a foreign object such as a bottle, an ashtray or a chair. I’ve seen a person get knocked out with a high heel shoe. I’ve even seen people get knocked out completely by accident. I once saw a girl sitting on a bar stool get taken out by an elbow from the guy standing next to her when he turned to hand a beer bottle to someone behind him. Hit her right in the temple and she just went straight to the carpet.
And I have seen how people behave towards those they have knocked out. Including boyfriend and girlfriend, boyfriend and boyfriend, girlfriend and girlfriend. He may be a dancing queen, but he’s also got a wicked left hook. (BTW, never assume anyone is right handed. I did that once. Once.)
So that’s a bit of my curriculum vitae when it comes to this. It’s my opinion that he is acting like he doesn’t completely believe that he knocked her out, and that he believes she is at least partially faking it. Myself, I believe she is partially (at least) intoxicated when she enters the elevator, given her balance issues as she walks towards and into the elevator. It’s a point to remember, because an intoxicated person is already partially unconscious.
After she hits her head on the rail she immediately loses consciousness. She is semi-conscious by the time the elevator doors open, and her true completely unconscious period was probably about five to fifteen seconds. At that point, she is starting to come to, but remember, she is also (IMHO) under the affects of alcohol as well as the impact. Among other things, when he starts to lift her outside the elevator she moves her right leg to get her foot under her. That implies a semi-conscious state. There is no audio available (that I am aware of) and so you can’t hear whether or not her breathing is normal, rapid or partially blocked.
As to Rice, he is simply behaving as if he doesn’t believe she’s unconscious. He probes her thigh with his foot and generally behaves as if he’s “not buying her act” and/or is very frustrated/annoyed with her. I do note that the very first thing she does when she is still “semi-conscious” and “coming to” is to act to regain possession of her purse which is on the floor. Most people who are in a deep fugue/semi-conscious state will not have the presence of mind to do that.
Regards,
-Bouncer-
This idea that women can get in a physical altercation with someone who could kill them in one punch because they are protected by their magical vagina shield is patently ridiculous and not something that should be defended in any circumstance. Don’t hit people, their sex, relative size or whether they have an innie or outie between their legs does not come into the equation at any point. And if you do hit someone you have no right to complain when you get hit back.
I’ve also been in a physically abusive relationship where she hit me on numerous occasions. Hell, I’m even bigger than Ray Rice (6’ 225, and in excellent shape), and despite the fact that she would hit me, never once was the response to even close my fist, much less slap her. In fact, I only felt compelled to even physically restrain her was when she punched me in the face while I was driving, so I grabbed her wrist, told her to stop (admittedly in a not-calm fashion), and pulled over. In every single other situation, when she struck me, I didn’t even do that much, I typically just took it, but would sometimes walk out.
I’ve also watched the video, and it’s clear that whatever was happening, had already started before they got in the elevator. I don’t give a damn who started it, but even if she did, he should have had the presence of mind not to get in the elevator with her. And even if he didn’t, this idea that he made a fist and held it out or whatever is just complete and utter fantasy. I could understand if he somehow physically restrained her in an enclosed environment like an elevator, but he just wasn’t in enough physical danger to warrant hitting her like that. Period.
And, no, not knowing his own strength isn’t an excuse. Like I said, I’m a big guy and very strong. I’m quite aware of the fact that I’m stronger than most people, and particularly I’m bigger and stronger than virtually every woman I’ve run into. This isn’t a mystery and I don’t get the luxury of losing my temper, because if I did, I’d be in the same situation he’s in or worse. No, not knowing your strength is like when I’m horsing around with my nephew and accidently lift him up to fast or push too hard. Moreso, he’s a professional athlete, and I played in football in middle school and high school, and one of the things I heard at each level was precisely not just how to make use of my skill on the field, but how to not bring it outside of that. There is no way he didn’t get some mentoring on that at some level as a professional athlete short of every single coach he ever had completely failing him.
And this isn’t anything special either. Smaller men aren’t free for the beating either. I’ve had guys half my size try to pick fights with me a few times, and the most I’ve ever done was physically restrain them; typically, just making it abundantly clear that I will defend myself and I will win is enough to get them to come to their sense. I’ve resulted to physical violence exactly once in my adult life, in a situation where my best friend was jumped by several men and his life was in danger. You’re damn right I took them out.
The point is, Ray Rice–or any professional athlete, or anyone else who potentially has the ability to seriously harm to kill someone, or a generally big guy, or law enforcement, or a person carrying a weapon, or a martial artist–there just plain isn’t an excuse to overreacting out of anger.
And specifically to the point in the OP. To some extent, I think I might even think the same way, and I think that’s unfortunate. Men and women should be held to the same standard, and provoking a response from someone that has the ability to hurt you is stupid. It seems to me that the correct response is somewhere in between. That is, if a person overreacts to a threat, he should be held responsible regardless of whether the person he hurt was a man or woman. Similarly, if someone is trying to start a fight, if that person is a woman she shouldn’t be exonerated of that fact, and if that person is a man, the person that overreacted shouldn’t be exonerated either.
And, quite frankly, I blame the idea of “a man should never hit a woman” for a lot of this. Refering back to my mentioned abusive relationship, she specifically said to me that to me, and that it was perfectly okay for her to hit me because she couldn’t hurt me. I responded with the idea that no one should hit anyone, and that though she couldn’t physically hurt me, it didn’t make the fact that someone that was supposed to love me intended to cause me harm any easier. Really, it makes about as much sense as saying that attempted murder shouldn’t be illegal just because that person wasn’t successful in killing someone. I’d rather just see us drop that whole line of thinking and just say it’s not okay for anyone to hit anyone.
Maybe the elevator was too small for him to do that thing where you hold someone away by the top of their head while they flail ineffectually in your direction.
That would be an issue to be decided by a judge or a jury. I don’t think you can make the definitive connection “it was self defense” = “he HAD to punch her”. You are oversimplifying the issue and putting words in people’s mouths.
Well, thanks for your rather lengthy resume. So to try to distill that down into your actual basis for the belief that Rice “thinks it’s all bullshit”, that would be his “probing her thigh with his foot”, I guess. Is there any other basis for your belief? I don’t think facial expression are really discernible in that low resolution video, so I’m not sure how you are observing that he is “frustrated/annoyed”. Could you elaborate, and might you have the timing in the video when this thigh-probing occurs?