A matter of belief and principles: reasonable tolerance (vegans)

Great Debates
41

Maybe I am not understanding a vegan’s concept of “cruel to animals” properly. If someone were to tell me that raising animals for food was inherently cruel, I would liken that (and I have, in this thread) to my own notion that slavery is inherently cruel.

And I would most emphatically not tolerate slavery. That is, quite simply, something i do not tolerate.

Given this, then, I swung 'round and determined that my friend’s gf was being reasonable. Should I encounter a slaveowner that I cared for I would demand something entirely similar. But, again, this already assumes there is a similarity there.

Given that this quality is there, I cannot understand how tolerance could ever even be considered. This is why I ask: was she being reasonable or not? Jomo, we certainly clashed here, but you see, I don’t understand being a vegan at all other than what I hear. And you’ve even repeated it.

Yes, and from what I understand, that is the key factor which seperates a vegan from other brands of vegetarian. I know several vegetarians who could care less about animal cruety (at least, it is and was not their motivation for their dietary choice at all).

So when I see the word “cruelty” used as a foundation for a behavioral choice, and I do not understand the application of “cruetly” there nor do I understand the behavior, then I have to liken it to something I do understand, which is the cruelty that something like slavery represents. And on the contrary side, I thought of religions which tolerate each others’ existence even though they were more or less fundamentally opposed on many, many different topics. I do not understand how a practicing Jew and a practicing Catholic can live together, much like I do not understand how a vegan and an omnivore can live together, much like I do not understand how a slave-owner and an someone opposed to slavery (shall we say, fundamentally opposed?) could live together.

Now, again, the two have worked things out, and he is free to stay with her provided that he doesn’t eat or bring meat in the house, and that he doesn’t order it in etc, and similar behavior. But the only thing I can grasp in this context is the slavery issue, and I still wouldn’t accept living with a slave-owner on analogous grounds.

So, please accept my non-sarcastic apology here, and let’s start this over. Where do my misconceptions, in your case, lie? How can you stand to live with someone who eats meat?

42

erislover, to answer your questions:

“This is why I ask: was she being reasonable or not” and
“How can you stand to live with someone who eats meat?”

I believe that it is very, very reasonable for her to expect her boyfriend to live up to her demands. Everyone does that, to some extent. Some people refuse to date smokers, or someone who drinks etc. If he cares about her enough, he’ll change/act accordingly in order to show that he respects her and her ideas.

But, I frankly don’t understand how a vegan could date an omnivore. (Though it’s a whole different story if one member of an established couple decides to stop eating meat, but that topic’s already been covered, so I won’t go into it)

I think you’re correct, and very brave, to make the slavery analogy. I think if more people really thought about their habit of eating meat, they would come up with many, many contradictions in their own lives.

“Save the whales, eat the cows.” “Don’t tease my pet cat, but be sure to give your money to companies who torture and slaughter millions of chickens.” “Wash your hands before eating your bacteria and feces-laced hamburger.” “I would never own a fur coat, but take a look at my swanky new leather pants . . .”

Also, if you want to further understand the “cruelty” vegans and vegetarians speak of, check out this (admittedly slanted) site.

There can be any number of assorted reasons why one chooses to go vegan. There’s usually no “one” supreme reason, but rather a mixture of the following:

1. Not supporting companies who torture and slaughter animals ie Animal Rights
2. Not supporting companies who advocate the use of synthetic hormones and chemicals in their products
3. It’s been proven to reduce the change of contracting serious disease - ie Health Reasons
4. Environmental reasons (includes everthing from GMOs to pesticides to overuse of water to soil degredation)

So, I’m still not really sure where you’re going with your questions. (Nicely and not at all trying to be sarcastic . . .) Where is this leading ?

You said: “Maybe I am not understanding a vegan’s concept of “cruel to animals” properly. If someone were to tell me that raising animals for food was inherently cruel, I would liken that (and I have, in this thread) to my own notion that slavery is inherently cruel. And I would most emphatically not tolerate slavery. That is, quite simply, something i do not tolerate.”

So, I guess the big question is: Then why do you tolerate eating meat? How can you justify/tolerate your own, personal choice of supporting and engaging in something you feel is akin to (comparable to in terms of cruelty) slavery?
Best,

TGD

43

Oh, I am not looking for a pro-vegan argument. I simply eat meat because it tastes good, and in the general case, I do not care about animals at all.

I’m looking to understand why it is that someone might expect a vegan to simply deal with it. That, if they weren’t to deal with it then they would be unreasonable. I don’t expect a vegan to deal with it, and in that, I find their position reasonable.

So it isn’t that I’m going anywhere, but rather looking to see where I am. Am I reasonable to agree with the intolerant vegan? I feel that I am, but that comes from my own notions of what it is to be vegan, which admittedly I do not understand any more than an atheist understands what it is like to believe in God. Which is to say, I recognize the sounds, but I’m not clear on the meaning.

44

Well, obviosuly, I think you’re reasonable to agree with the intolerant vegan. But, that goes without saying . . .

So. Are you saying that you personally believe vegans are, in fact, more “moral” people than omnivores, and don’t deserve to be called “unreasonable” or “intolerant”?

Now, are you talking about being sympathetic and understanding to vegans in general (as a way of life), or being understanding of a particular vegan, with whom you may find yourself going out to eat with?

Also, I don’t think that comparing veganism with religions is the best analogy. Much better to equate veganism with a philosophical movement, a la feminism, environmentalism, or any other -ism that suits your fancy.

I’m sorry, I still can’t really see what you’re reaching for. Are you looking for reassurance? Are you looking for someone to villify vegans? Are you looking for some vegan recipes? I can’t really tell. Please elaborate.

Best,

TGD

45

I am looking to answer the question: is it reasonable for the vegan to live with a meat eater? And, is it reasonable for a vegan to demand their SO stop eating meat?

I only brought up religion because that is what first came to my mind. “If a catholic and a jew can live together happily, I am sure she could manage to stay with you” [to my friend]. To be honest, I still feel that that makes sense, except to say that now I am sort of in amazement at the catholic and the jew instead of the other way around.

So somewhere, my thinking is muddled? Thus, I am also thinking of the question: is the opposite of a reasonable notion on tolerance also reasonable? In the case of slavery, the only thing I know to compare this to, it would not be (to me). So where I once shook my head at the crazy vegan, I now shake my head at the crazy catholic+jew. How can they tolerate it reasonably?—it is as if they didn’t come to their beliefs through reason, nor hold them for reason, but that they just are and others aren’t and so what… (which is why I wondered if they were really practicing their faiths… in what situation could they be said to be practicing their religion if they behave in this fashion?).

I don’t want to say whether one is more moral than another, but rather, does it make sense to say that a vegan who insists their SO stop eating meat is unreasonable? The answer seems to lean toward the “no” side, and this feels right to me, but then I would like to know, is it then reasonable for a vegan to live with a meat-eater and not demand they stop (ie—the vegan “tolerates” the omnivore)?

The two cases seem to me, as they seem to seem to you, the_great_dalmuti, to be mutually exclusive. But we have at least once specific instance where a person does tolerate that behavior from an SO. And I should like to say: this is a reasonable person.

So what’s the reason? What have I failed to understand that I cannot accept the opposite of reasonable as reasonable? (I do not intend for that to sound like an obvious contradiction, but it does, and I apologize for that phrasing yet can think of no other)

46

My wife and two teenage stepchildren are almost vegans (they do eat some cheeses). Even though my wife is a vegan for religious reasons she has no problem that I like meat. I rarely eat it at home though because it would mean preparing two meals. When we go out together for dinner I will order a rare and bloody steak sometimes. I don’t feel badly about this because I don’t have the same religious convictions as she, and she doesn’t hold that against me. My wife also knows that meat tastes good so if I want to jeopardize my place in the next life she knows it is my choice.