A meme is a terrible thing to waste?

In a recent thread a dispute arose about whether the word “meme” carries a connotation of falsehood. Dictionary.com offers several definitions from different sources, including this one:

The above definition and the others given at that site are neutral as to any expectation of truth or falsehood in any particular meme. Yet a number of Dopers (myself among them) expressed an understanding that “meme” carries a connotation analogous to urban legend or factoid. My own impression is that the word has picked up this negative association through its use in political contexts.

Rather than attempt a hijack of the original thread, I present here the issues that have occurred to me:

Do other Dopers perceive a negative connotation in the word?

Is it incorrect to expand the word’s meaning beyond that of its original use?

Does an expansion of the word’s original meaning provide a useful term for a concept not precisely described by alternative words or phrases?

In certain contexts, yes, often when referring to newsblogs, both Left and Right.
But once again, it’s the context that’s important.

I don’t think so. I’m perfectly capable of seperating out the intended meaning based on context, and I’m sure others are too. I think anyone who objects to changing word usages needs a life. I hope such people never use the word “pink” to refer to the colour, for instance.

Well, for one sense of “meme”, the “viral factoid” contruction is a little clunkier, but just as precise. I’m ok with either.

Meme has no negative connotations to me. I stay the hell away from the blogosphere (which obviously does have negative connotations to me :wink: ) though and merely associate meme with projects like memepool and with fleeting trends/pieces of cultural flotsam passing through the collective consciousness.

It doesn’t have negative connotations to me either.

I don’t think using it with a negative connotation expands its use, but restricts it. In the original definition, any self replicating piece of information is a meme, in your definition it also has to be wrong.

It’s natural for language to change, but I always think it’s sad when a word loses its meaning because it’s used incorrectly by people who don’t understand it.

What mkl12 said.

I’m as descriptivist as they come, but I do apply a test to the use of language: does a particular use of language lead to strong communication?

In this case, I think we also have to look at another connotation of “meme”: it’s a word that comes from science, and so it carries with it an imprimatur of authority.

When someone uses it in a wholly unscientific sense, to mean “sloganeering” or something similar, they’re taking advantage of two different, contradictory connotations of the word: they’re using a scientific term (which is neutral in its original meaning) to lend weight to their condemnation of their opponents.

I really don’t like that. It doesn’t lead to clearer communication, inasmuch as the audience has got a tangle of connotations to figure out before they can decide whether they agree or disagree with what the speaker said. That’s not fair to the audience, and it’s especially unfair to the accused.

In general, though, one of my other pet peeves is folks using scientific terms that they don’t understand in order to gain some of science’s authority. The best other example I can think of is the misuse of “quantum,” which positively drives me up the wall. I wonder whether those who are fine with “meme” used this way also don’t get upset by someone who describes, say, a quantum change in American politics?

Daniel

I couldn’t say it as clearly as **LHoD ** can; who could? But I don’t like the use of the word either. Too many people use it who really have no idea what it means, and it smacks of pretentiousness to me.

A couple of additional thoughts – I spent a fair amount of time trying to wrap my mind around the concept when I first encountered it, and it bothers me when it’s used as shorthand (for something only tangentially connected to the original concept) by someone who hasn’t made that effort. I’m not sure if I’m convinced by Dawkins, but it’s definitely an interesting idea – one that’s worth keeping to the original sense.

Since I don’t hang out in blogworld, I wasn’t aware of the extent to which the word is losing its technical meaning, so in the thread that shall not be named I was responding to what I thought was a specific instance of the term’s misuse, which I didn’t have the blog context for. Apparently I was somewhat OT there. My apologies.

As something of a related point, “charisma” has a very specific – and quite userful – meaning in the sociology of religion, and I’ve pretty much given up worrying about the fact that that meaning’s been lost.

It’s one of my favorite musicals.

There are words that disciplines like science or philosophy borrow from common usage. Philosophy, for example, uses the term “phenomenon” in a particular way that bears only cursory resemblance to ordinary usage. In a discussion about Kant, there is nothing extraordinary about a phenomenal object. Law and science use the term “force” in very specific ways, despite its popular meaning. In a legal discussion, no one means to suggest that a court decision having the force of law implies anything about the mass or acceleration of it. Libertarianism borrows the term “coercion”, and gives it a specific meaning as well.

There’s nothing wrong with this. It is useful because it makes it easier to introduce the term to those who are outside the discipline. All they have to do is add to their list of known meanings instead of learning a whole new word, like “muxmomp” or something. English is a robust language, and a term can have many different definitions — sometimes so far-ranging that two of them contradict each other! Take, for example, the word “sanction”. In one context, it conveys something good, but in another, something bad. His work is sanctioned (protected and recommended) by the High Holy Review Board, but he has been sanctioned (rebuked and disciplined) by the High Holy Review Board.

Seldom is there a problem with borrowed words within the disciplines. Two physicists talking about the force of an object in motion will never become confused that they are talking about the object’s political ethics. The problem arises when the general public uses such terms in more than one way. In other words, the enemy is equivocation. If I know, you know, and everybody knows what we mean by the term when we use it, then no harm no foul. But if we use a term for one of its meanings in the same argument that we use it for another, then we’ve fouled out big time.

For example, let’s say you’re introducing me to libertarian philosophy, and you explain to me that coercion is initial force, and that libertarianism is defined as opposition to coercion. If I then attack your philosophy by saying that suppression of coercion renders everyone defenseless, I am either misunderstanding you or deliberately equivocating. You have explained clearly what you mean by the term “coercion”, but I am using it in the sense of responsive, rather than initial, force.

The problem with meme is that it went the other way: coined in the discipline, and borrowed for common usage. Equivocal usage of it is positively rampant. Even within its discipline, it is often necessary to explain exactly what you mean — whether the original Dawkinsian meaning or something else. Words like that are susceptible, through descriptive erosion, to becoming practically useless. What started out as something intended to convey the mechanism by which social ideas spread becomes something intended to convey the laziness and unscrupulousness of people who spread ideas. It then becomes impossible to use it in its right sense because equivocation has destroyed it.

If the same thing had happened to, say, “phenomenon”, we might be seeing such statements as “The weakness of faith is that there’s nothing phenomenal about it.” Or, “This latest discovery is yet another phenomenon of science and technology.”

Meme, to me, does indeed imply, if not falsehood, at least subterfuge. And I’m pissed off that it does. But not enough people are going to stop and go, “Hey, we’re ruining a perfectly good word here,” and so the debacle is going to continue. There’s no way to stop it, so I choose simply not to use the term at all. And if someone else uses it in a discussion with me, I am forced to ask them what they mean by it. That makes me look ignorant, and that pisses me off too.

This paragraph is perhaps the best thought out argument against this stupid word that I have yet to see. It puts into words a feeling I’ve been trying to express to myself for quite a while. Thanks, Lib.

I think the term is neutral itself, but capable of being used in a way close the popular usage. A meme can be any cultural component that is replicated. So you can describe a certain aspect of a distinct culture, such as right-wing bloggers, as memes. This doesn’t say anything about the validity of the thing you’re describing, though. It applies equally to assuming the Clinton Administration was the most corrupt in history, and dropping sand and grain in a lake then scooping the grain off the surface while the sand sinks.

Its usage now reminds of what has happened to “rhetoric.” Of course, no one can make any kind of an argument without using rhetoric. Still, many people seem to believe that it is valid to dismiss an argument as “rhetoric.”

Thanks, all, for your thoughtful responses. LHoD and Liberal in particular have offered much food for thought, but you’ve all given me new insights. My own exposure to the word has been limited primarily to its common usage, since I am not well-read in the discipline where it originated.

The point made by saoirse about “rhetoric” makes me wonder whether the debasing of terms hijacked from a narrow meaning within a discipline is more likely to tend to the negative? But then, “naughty” used to mean very bad, evil, and was drained of its force through its application to children, as I understand it. So perhaps that hypothesis is hogwash.

Disclaimer: I haven’t read The Selfish Gene, so my comments about Dawkins may not be correct. If anyone spots an error, feel free to comment.

The original formulation is that a meme is the unit of communicable culture: a piece of communicable culture that cannot be subdivided into smaller pieces of communicable culture. To be honest, I have my doubts that this notion is one that will be considered necessary in any account of how culture evolves. The idea of the meme was expanded to include much larger constructions before (or maybe simultaneously with) the restricting effect of the negative connotation, as ** mkl12** said.

It seems to me that Dawkins’ description of the meme may bear some of the blame for how the word came to be used. Dawkins describes memes as viruses of the mind, invaders that hijack the machinery of the mind for their own purposes. While this may be a good description for meme-level view of things, retaining this image is not conducive to good thought when looking at individuals or societies as a whole. This gave plenty of ammunition to those that believe that all significance of a thing can be effectively removed by stating its fundamental element (think “love is just chemical reactions in the brain”, or the denial “love can’t be just chemicals in the brain, it is so much more!").

People also latched onto the notion that a meme is a replicating idea, to the exclusion of any other way a meme could act to produce a change in culture (for example, changing the context of an idea/associating an idea with one where there was no previous connection). Take the combination of the above effects and time, and we get the modern usage of “sloganeering” (thanks to LHoD!).

As I mentioned in the other thread, I think this evolution is funny in an ironic way. When we apply the original definition to the new negative connotation, it seems that going through this Darwin-esque evolutionary process robs an idea of its validity, which is more or less analogous to the creationist claim that biological evolution robs humanity of its dignity.

As Liberal notes, meme is one example of a long line of words with different technical and popular definitions: theory, work, voltage, energy, power, force, etc. There’s nothing wrong with this, except when it leads to equivocation.

Without reading through the rest of the replies to see if I’m on track, what I have taken “meme” to mean is that sort of collective unconscious kind of behavior, where people across the country suddenly pick up some mannerism, or practice, or language. Something that becomes a kind of instant tradition without anybody really thinking about it.

The only negative connotation to me would be the suggestion that we blindly follow others, but then people are herd animals, sensitive to the pack.

Words change. Often they change because people use them improperly. I may be using meme improperly (but then, I don’t use it, I only think I understand it and before I actually would use it, I would attempt to make sure I was using it correctly). In my limited understanding, the fact that humans alter the meanings of the words they use, as they use them, is itself a meme.

Meme…oh, yeah. That’s what Celine Dion calls herself!

Meme. Like a mime, only more self-absorbed.

Meme meme… What The Roadrunner says when he sleepwalks.

I won’t say that you’re using it improperly, but I will say that you’re using it in a way that’s likely to impede honest communication.

Which of the following is a meme?
a) Walmart’s smiley face.
b) “Jesus died for your sins.”
c) Greensleeves
d) My name.
e) President Bush’s campaign of misinformation about WMDs in Iraq.

My understanding (which may be faulty) is that Dawkins would consider a, b, c, and d to be memes; e describes too much stuff to be a meme, although the statement as a whole might be a meme. My understanding is that some bloggers would consider e to be the only meme (and possibly a).

Since there are already great terms for e–“propaganda,” or “lying,” or “jingoistic flagwaving”–I’d rather use something more specific, something that out-and-out condemns that which I mean to condemn.

If I call e a meme, it might not confuse people. But what if I refer to “Bush lied, people died” as a meme? It qualifies both under Dawkins’s nonjudgmental definition and udner the bloggers’ judgmental one. WHen that happens, confusion runs rampant.

Daniel