A national language

Great Debates
21

Well, actually I went to Japan, to learn Japanese. Learning a language as an adult is really difficult.

For the first 6 months I would ask someone a question about directions to somewhere in Japanese, not have a clue what they were saying in answer, but follow their hand movements.

Now I live in Hong Kong. Cantonese is so difficult, with 9 different tones, that I have made no attempt to try (I’m learning Mandarin, spoken more in northern China, because that only has 4 tones).

Native English speakers do not realise just how difficult English is. English has a very complicated set of rules about tenses, which are extremely difficult to learn, and not seen in any other languages to the best of my knowledge, eg. “would have been going” is future past progressive tense (from vague memory). It has a pile of complicated spelling rules (eg. “i” before “e” except after “c”). The only advantage many non-Native speakers have is that English is a pervasive language - other languages adopt a lot of English words. But that doesn’t help with grammar.

I must ask, Dragongirl - do you speak any other languages, or tried to learn any other languages?

As an immigrant to Hong Kong, I’m contributing to the HK economy. I pay my taxes, and obey the local laws. I’m very happy if someone in a shop or taxi speaks English, but I never expect them to: people are happy if I can mutter a few words of Cantonese but its never expected: what’s the problem?

Should I be prevented from contributing to my new community because I don’t speak the same language? Of course not.

Most immigrants come to a country to work, and work hard. There usually isn’t a lot of time left over to sit down and learn a language.

There is something also to be said for diversity. Japan is a very homogeneous society. Everyone looks more or less the same, comes from more or less the same culture, and there are very few immigrants. Japanese culture is rich, but I think I would prefer to be somewhere where there is a wide variety of people and cultures. Its enlightening, it builds tolerance and respect, and its a generous sharing of cultural legacy. Language is a part of culture.

Finally, the southern US sits on a cultural fault line, intersecting with Latin America. As the US becomes increasingly integrated within its region, there will be more diversity. Its not going to be a problem that is going to go away for you, unless the US abandons regional integration. You’re just have to going to get used to it.

22

I really think that the point I’m trying to make has been misunderstood.

In response to someone above. Yes I do speak a little Spanish, not much, just from high school years ago. In the area of Pennsylvannia where I live there is not much need for it.

I also know that English is a difficult language to learn, my children are just starting to read and it is hard for them to understand all the rules, it is very complicated.

As I said in my first post, I feel it should be learned for safety’s sake. If there is an accident of some kind and a person is in an area where their language is not spoken it puts those people in a more difficult and dangerous situation.

By all means I think that people should speak the language that they are comfortable with, however a working knowledge of English in the U.S. shouldn’t be a problem for those that move here, because they just might end up in a situation where the only language understood is English.

I also know that I don’t always spell very well, but this has not ever made it hard for anyone to understand me.

I certainly don’t mind if children are taught other languages, but they need to know English because they live here.

My stepmother does not speak English and I only speak a little Spanish, it is very hard to talk to her. She has lived here for 3 years and has not tried to learn. I wouldn’t mind learning better Spanish, but it would be nice for her to try a little English too. Then we would both be better off, instead my father says that she is fine and I’m the only one who needs to learn. I think something is wrong with that attitude.

23

As a practical matter, English is the de facto national language of the U.S.

English is also the universal language for ATC and Pilots, for example. It’s not a question of being xenophobic, it’s a logistical and safety consideration. Everyone needs to be on the same sheet of music.

You can’t imagine the problems that can develop trying to understand an air traffic controller who speaks poor english!

In a country like the U.S. of 280 million people from all corners of the globe, it only makes sense to have one national language that the documents, road signs, are composed.

24

Fraid not Tedster. First of all, I don’t foresee anybody who doesn’t know English becoming an ATC soon, it pays too well. Recent immigrants take the shitty jobs: flipping burgers, bussing tables, driving taxis, etc. You don’t need to know much English to do that. You can’t drive without knowing enough English to recognize what the signs say, and if documents are only published in English it prevents people from gaining upward mobility. And that’s what every single immigrant to the United States wants. Unless you’re an American Indian, that’s probably what your ancestors wanted too.

25

English is the universal language for ATC throughout the world. I’m not talking about the U.S.; it’s a given we’re not that stupid yet as to hire non-english speaking ATC’s inside the US itself. Thanks for playing, though.

26

No creo que hay un idioma ‘oficial’ del *Straight Dope Message Board *, y las reglas escritas debajo no indican eso. Así no temo que los moderadores de Great Debates me vayan a prohibir, ni vayan a borrar esta respuesta (como algunas autoridades de Québec han regulado fanáticamente el uso del inglés escrito en lugares publicos).
Entonces, puedo expresarme aquí en español - o cualquier otro idioma - en libertad. Pero a lo mejor, imagino que sólo 20% o 30% de los lectores de este tablillo saben leer español.
Entonces mis opiniones, mis sentimientos, y mis pensamientos no serían compresibles entre la mayoría de Uds. Por esa razón, es necesario que yo use un idioma entendido por 100% de los dopers. Y este ejemplo puede servir como un microcosmo ejemplar de la sociedad estadounidense. Si sólo sé español, tengo ciudadania parcial, no puedo participar 100% en mí país.

27

Although I only took Spanish classes for a few years in high school, I believe that I understood the gist of the above post. I didn’t even get terrific grades in Spanish!

I agree completely with jaimest - if I read the post correctly ;). I’d guess that not very many people who read this board know how to read Spanish, and hence will not be able to understand the post if they come across it.

However, I’d bet that most people who post to the board understand English perfectly well. I’ve only been posting for a short while, so I could be wrong, but I’m guessing that not many people post in languages other than English. Why? Because they would be limiting themselves. Or as jaimest puts it:

quote:

Originally posted by jaimest

“Entonces mis opiniones, mis sentimientos, y mis pensamientos no serían compresibles entre la mayoría de Uds. Por esa razón, es necesario que yo use un idioma entendido por 100% de los dopers”

I know the tense probably isn’t quite right, but that’s the gist of what I’m saying.

28

You’d be surprised what your local community does for foreign residents. In Japan, I was given a pamphlet explaining what to do in the event of an earthquake, fire or tsunami. It had phoenetic translations of words. It was very helpful.

I get that all the time. Everyone gets by.

Sounds like an internal domestic issue for you, not an argument requiring all non-English speakers in an English speaking country to sacrifice time effort and money to learn English.

29

There’s something wrong with suggesting that you learn a language so you and your stepmother can communicate…

But there’s nothing wrong with you suggesting that other people learn a language so that there can be better communication?

30

Again I am misunderstood. I have no problem trying to learn better Spanish then I do. I did not move to another country and ask anyone to learn my language without trying to learn theirs also. I can’t understand why anyone would ever do that. It puts a lot of limitations on what you can do.

I think that it is a valuable assset to you if you are bilingual, but as a practical matter if you live is the U.S. you should be able to communicate in English.

As for my stepmother, she works as a cleaning lady, in her country she was a manager, but here no one will hire her as anything else. She seems like a smart enough person but her language is a barrier to her.

31

To be honest about this, for MOST Canadian students, the extent to which they “learn” the second language (French for most, English for others) is limited to twenty minutes a day of “Fermez la porte.” Genuine bilingual instruction or immersion is NOT mandatory. Most English Canadians, and a fair number of French Canadians, are unilingual.

Canada is bilingual, but most Canadians, individually, aren’t.

32

Then maybe it’s your language skills in question.

Except for the minor issue that you expect that to be optional in your case but required for every single immigrant and, apparently, every single tourist to this land. In case it’s escaped you: ENGLISH IS NOT AN EASY LANGUAGE TO LEARN.

Nor did anyone move here and demand you learn their language.

Irrelevant. Nobody did that.

Still irrelevant.

Obvious conclusion, except that you expect everyone here to speak English so it really doesn’t matter if someone’s bilingual. Unless, of course, they deign to speak with you.

Reciting this mantra does not make it true. After all, it’s quite possible to survive, and survive well, in many communities in the United States without speaking English. There’s also the issue of the areas (Texas, Louisiana, and Puerto Rico come to mind immediately) which already had their own languages, other than English, when they became part of this country.

Maybe the degree she got back in the old country is not recognized in this country. Have you considered that possibility?

33

Hmm… don’t see then how legally mandating English as “official” language would drive her to develop the skill – I mean, if the very real economic/social disadvantage she is incurring hasn’t in these years, maybe her difficulty is one that cannot be fixed by decree. Like gorewonfla and MysterEcks said, normally the marketplace will take care of motivating persons who need to and CAN learn the common language. Daytime and late-night Spanish-language TV in the USA is FULL of infommmercials for Inglés Sin Barreras, English 2001, and all sorts of other learn-English-fast products, all of them full of testimonials about “making it” thanks to English. In a visit to Guatemala City I was surprised by the number of shingles hung out offering “English lessons,” and not exactly in fancy neighborhoods.

It’s a minority of the total number of inmigrants who remain devoid of knowledge of English for long. It is not that big a hardship to accommodate in SOME limited instances the need of SOME fraction of the community; it IS fair to expect the other side to make a good faith attempt to learn some of the common language. But if a society, for low-level employment, hardly requires verbal competence or even grade-school literacy in the common language ** among its majority population of native speakers**, and anyway the majority native speakers view that work as beneath them, then we should not begrudge a multilingual driver’s license test.

The ocassional reported instances of forbidding employees from casually addressing each other in their mother tongue at the place of employment just means some managers are idiots; but I have no problem with the ability to communicate effectively with 95% of the population at-large being noted for retention and advancement. I believe basic education should aim for an individual competent in the common language of their society, regardless if it’s a bilingual, trilingual, or however-many-lingual track – but also that EVERYONE should also get schooled in basic skills in one or more other languages, whether or not their parents like it (that’s like claiming “Why should my kid take geometry, he’s not going to be an architect anyway.”) But for the older inmigrant it’s a much heavier task than for the schoolchild

I’d have no problem with a recognized common language, if only it could not then become an instrument to impose a social-darwinian rule under which the majority doesn’t have to give a damn whether the minority sinks or swims. Which is the problem I have with English-Only and English-First (and the OP does NOT seem to be one, though some of the repliers do), for their agenda seems more about forcing “identity” assimilation that about language use…
On preview I see RickJay’s comment, which I happen to have experienced to be true and reiterates my first point – “official” languages just mean the government uses such languages, the people go on as they see fit (OK, so the Quebecois authorities are really anal about French; but all they acheve is to annoy business owners).

jrd

34

Rickjay is 100% correct. Certainly many anglophones do not learn more than a grade 8 french education, which they forget about as quickly as americans forget the 50 state capitols.

But, my point was not about how well canadians speak french or english, but just on what effect teaching another language has on development of attitudes about other languages. I certainly remember various songs,slogans, and commericals being translated on students own time in order to see how it would be different – and many canadians go on cultural exchanges. All in all, canadians have a much more accepting attitude towards other cultures and other languages. I can’t prove they are related, but I certainly believe they are.

Me’Corva (The Canadian Apologist)

35

IMHO, an American is defined as:

  1. Being 2nd generation American
  2. Speaking English without an accent

This isn’t to say you can’t become a citizen without these 2, it’s just that a real American has these 2.

36

Dragongirl has made at least 3 valid observations within the general idea of language barriers, which is basically where this thread has evolved to…

(1).The issue of highway safety: Until there are Standardized DOT multi lingual road signs erected in at least the lower 48 states, it’s a pretty safe assumption that anyone driving a motor vehicle needs at least a rudimentary understanding of the language in which the signs are written, which in our case is English. IMO having the ability to quickly decipher the critical information printed on the road signs is pretty darned important, especially when hurtling down the highway operating a huge truck or even a passenger car, if not for ones’ personal safety, then at least the general public who occupy the road with you.

(2). Within the concept that her Mother-In-Law was once a manager and is now a housekeeper, evidently, Dragongirl is stating the language barrier is tantamount in disqualifying her mother-in-law from being considered for a similar job here in the U.S. where evidently the majority of the population speaks and uses English, as opposed to Spanish.

(3). Dragongirl states the idea that if her mother-in-law did learn English as a second language, she could better her job prospects and overall condition if she’d put forth an effort to try and learn the most commonly used language of the land.

I’d say this is very true…

37

Well, this isn’t IMHO, this is GD, so I’d appreciate a cite showing that a real American has to have those two things. My grandmother had neither of those two items; she came here when she was 5, raised 12 kids, worked until she died, and treasured her naturalization document which made her an American.

38

jaimest: *No creo que hay un idioma ‘oficial’ del Straight Dope Message Board , y las reglas escritas debajo no indican eso. Así no temo que los moderadores de Great Debates me vayan a prohibir, ni vayan a borrar esta respuesta (como algunas autoridades de Québec han regulado fanáticamente el uso del inglés escrito en lugares publicos).

Entonces, puedo expresarme aquí en español - o cualquier otro idioma - en libertad. Pero a lo mejor, imagino que sólo 20% o 30% de los lectores de este tablillo saben leer español.

Entonces mis opiniones, mis sentimientos, y mis pensamientos no serían compresibles entre la mayoría de Uds. Por esa razón, es necesario que yo use un idioma entendido por 100% de los dopers. Y este ejemplo puede servir como un microcosmo ejemplar de la sociedad estadounidense. Si sólo sé español, tengo ciudadania parcial, no puedo participar 100% en mí país.*

"I don’t think there is an “official” language of the SDMB, and the written regs don’t indicate one. So I don’t think that the GD mods will ban me or pull this post (as some authorities in Quebec have fanatically regulated the use of written English in public [um] writings.

Therefore, I can express anything [?] in Spanish—or any other language—freely. But at most, I imagine that only 20% or 30% of readers of this board can read Spanish.

Therefore my opinions, sentiments, thoughts will not be comprehensible to the majority of Americans. For this reason, it’s necessary that I use a language understood by 100% of Dopers. And this example can serve as a representative microcosm of US society. If I speak [?] only Spanish I have a partial citizenship, I can’t participate 100% in my country."

Did I get it right? Did I get it right? Wow, I read Spanish!!!

Um…well…I guess I read Spanish if I already know what it’s talking about. Oh well. :slight_smile:

39

Yes, indeed you got it right apart from some minor mistakes (I could have missed some) :

lugares=places, not writings
aqui=here, not anything
se=know (from the verb “saber”), not speak
But usually understanding a language in written form is the easiest. Though I’ve no major problem reading english (and to a much more limited extend, spanish), I’m totally lost in an english (or spanish, for that matter) speaking country. Asking people to write down what they just said or to repeat it three times speaking slowly and using simple words (and often, they don’t realize that a common but idiomatic form is not simple to understand for a non-native speaker) isn’t very convenient in everyday life.
Being really fluent in a foreign language is indeed very difficult, and there’s no way you can get a well-paid job if you aren’t perfectly fluent (wondering for several minutes what’s the correct way to express your mind is OK on a written board, but it won’t make it when explaining something to your boss). I’m not absolutely convinced that everybody learning a second language as an adult is able to reach this level of fluency, whatever effort he puts in it.

Not even taking into account the alphabet’s issue, for an immigrant coming from, say, a chinese or arabic speaking country…

40

’

1.If thats true, Americans can not no longer take credit for inventing the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell, of Scotland), atomic energy (Fermi, Einstein, Teller et al. assorted immigrants), “plug in” electric appliances (Nikola Tesla, of Croatian Serbian birth) basketball (Dr. James Naismith was Canadian born), or of course Budweiser (or do we wan’t to take credit for that).
So if we struck all the foreign born people from the pantheon of ‘real Americans’, the USA wouldn’t have quite as much to boast about would it?
2. Who doesn’t speak English with an accent?