dragongirl wrote:
I agree! Everybody should learn to speak Esperanto, the International Language!
(Just don’t call me a samideano.)
jaimest wrote:
Shouldn’t there be an accent mark over the “u” in “publicos”? (And shouldn’t “inglés” be capitalized?)
1: Yes; 2: No
See, the problem is that the points made are fairly trivial, but they miss the point. Her mother in law would have better job prospects if she spoke english fluently without accent, but, so? Look at the situation. The mother in law would need to take night classes for a long time ( at least a 3 years ) to get fluency without obvious accent, and that is expensive and time-consuming. And, after that, what experience does she have? She’s been working as a house-cleaner, and the management experience she has in another country is likely to be ignored by americans. ( unless it’s an ‘america’-like country like canada ). So, it’s likely after 3 years of night school, she’ll still have trouble getting a management job. So, if she decides not to try, I think that’s fairly reasonable.
As for the road signs, you are right. People should be able to easily read road signs. But, not that every (?) state has a written test, and all(?) of them show road signals as part of the test. And, remember, many of our signs are symbolic, so that they are readable to everyone equally. So, yes, people should be able to read road signs – but generally, that comes pretty quickly. A harder question is: “will they be able to ask directions if they need help?”. The answer to that is that you need a MUCH more broad english skill to do that – and a failure to communicate while asking questions is more likely, IMHO, what caused Dragongirl to raise this issue.
So, yes, her points are valid, but so is JRDelirious’ – it isn’t clear that mandating English as a national language will help. And, it isn’t clear that it is bad to have spanish signs in largely spanish speaking populations. Since LA is almost 50% hispanic (which of course, do not all speak spanish, nor spanish only – but a percentage do. ), that may mean that LA should have road signs in two languages. That would certainly help to ensure that
(almost) everyone has a “rudimentary understanding of the language in which the signs are written”
Maybe that is a better direction?
Me’Corva
IMHO, an American is defined as:
- Being 2nd generation American
- Speaking English without an accent
This isn’t to say you can’t become a citizen without these 2, it’s just that a real American has these 2. **
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1.If thats true, Americans can not no longer take credit for inventing the telephone (Alexander Graham Bell, of Scotland), atomic energy (Fermi, Einstein, Teller et al. assorted immigrants), “plug in” electric appliances (Nikola Tesla, of Croatian Serbian birth) basketball (Dr. James Naismith was Canadian born), or of course Budweiser (or do we wan’t to take credit for that).
So if we struck all the foreign born people from the pantheon of ‘real Americans’, the USA wouldn’t have quite as much to boast about would it?
2. Who doesn’t speak English with an accent? **
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I don’t think we should take “credit” for these inventions and I don’t think anyone does - I have never heard that harnessing atomic energy was done by Americans - the credit goes to Fermi and his team, etc., etc. Only in the Space program do you hear “Americans first on the moon”, etc. and that’s because it was tied up in the politics of the Cold War.
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Perhaps I should have said “foreign accent”, but I think most people understood. I realize they have heavy accents in many parts of the country, but these are American accents.
hmmmm…
this post I gotta reply.
You’re saying immigrants don’t want to learn English.
Well…
how many languages you speak?
(yes, I know that the question you answered earlier).
Just for making my point.
I still think you’re generalazing.
- In order to learn, the immigrants need to take classes to study English.
- In order to pay for the classes they need a job that feeds them and keeps a roof over their heads.
- In order to get that job they need to know the language.
Notice a circle?
It is not easy to start a life in another country.
Many give up on the language and I do think it is wrong.
But many try.
And speaking about English being a difficult language.
Go to Google (or any other equivalent search machine) and look up Estonian.
So,
Estonian is characterised by:
-Absence of gender (the same pronoun for both he and she),
-Absence of definite-indefinite articles (a and the in English),
-Long words due to the structure of the language,
-Numerous grammatical cases (14),
This is more than in Latin, Russian, German or English.In order to be able to form all forms of the weirdest words correctly, one must simply know 2-7 of its basic forms (depending on the category of the word: noun, adjective, verb, etc.; nouns are the worst), or to be a native Estonian. The weirdest words are the ones that you need most.
-Conjugation of verbs:
There are only four tenses: one present and three pasts. NO future.In each of the tenses, the ending of a verb depends on the person and the number. Very awkwardly, each verb has two infinitives, and you have to know when to use which. Even funnier, both infinitives can be declined.
-postpositions rather than prepositions, and
no syntactic equivalent of the verb to have.
Sounds tough?
Think of a same problem in this small country which has a big population of russians from the Soviet times(Estonia has been occupied by Russia several times after regaining it’s final independency 10 years ago).
Russians mainly do not speak much of estonian, especially the older people. And they really do not need to since they socialize with their own community rather then mingle with estonians. Besides every second estonian speaks russian, kids learn it in schools as an obligatory subject.
And who needs estonian anyway, right?
Even finding the country on the map takes a little while.
I’s the same problem.
And the solution to that is:
Learn languages.
As simple as that.
I dont mean to brag now but I do speak 5.
Because I have to since I come from such a small country most haven’t even heard of.
Many choose not to.
Their lives.
Their future.
Your life is what you make of it.
That’s why I prefaced it with IMHO. Would it have made it clearer if I put <hijack>?? Sorry.
She’s a citizen, she’s not a bad person or anything, my Grandparents were the same. But, to be completely acclimated and be an American, I believe you have to have those 2 things. I thought about kids who came in at an early age, only spoke English with no accent, but I wasn’t writing a legal document, so I didn’t include every possible case. So I will take it back regarding your Grandmother.
TV news anchors. rimshot 
And to address the OP: let people learn – or don’t – whatever languages they want to. As long as they’re willing to put up with the consequences of their ignorance, that’s fine by me.
quote;
See, the problem is that the points made are fairly trivial, but they miss the point. Her mother in law would have better job prospects if she spoke english fluently without accent, but, so?
Actually I never read where either Dragongirl or I stated her mother-in-law would need to drop the accent in order to speak English fluently enough to function at a higher level than her current non English speaking predicament dictates. There are many successful, affluent people living and working in the U.S. who have an obvious accent when they speak English.
quote;
Look at the situation. The mother in law would need to take night classes for a long time ( at least a 3 years ) to get fluency without obvious accent, and that is expensive and time-consuming.
Granted it might take some effort on her mother-in-laws part to become fluent enough to gain the ability to communicate effectively… The last time I checked, there were plenty of adult education programs available to immigrants that are available at low or no cost to the person desiring to better their situation…It might be time consuming to gain some education, but what is 3 years when making an attempt to level the playing field concerning the rest of one’s life? There are scores of immigrants who’ve pulled themselves up by their own boot straps by furthering their education. No one said it was easy, but the choice to better one’s self begins with self motivation.
quote;
And, after that, what experience does she have? She’s been working as a house-cleaner, and the management experience she has in another country is likely to be ignored by americans. ( unless it’s an ‘america’-like country like canada ). So, it’s likely after 3 years of night school, she’ll still have trouble getting a management job. So, if she decides not to try, I think that’s fairly
reasonable.
Who says she has to work for anyone else? Could this person not create her own business? Since it was not stated what the bulk of her management experience was, it’s not prudent to just assume that her previous experience will likely be ignored. IMO, her past experience as a manager would be taken into consideration if the field she was trying to enter was somehow related to the said field, particularly if she holds a degree in that field… But at best and in all fairness…We both are making assumptions about the woman’s experiences.
A pox on both English and Spanish, Let’s go back to the real American language, Nahuatl!
Seriously, though, Dragongirlhas a point. In my area of NoVa just across the Potomac from DC, there are whole areas where there is nothing but Spanish spoken. The recent Central American immigrants here live insular lives–they speak Spanish exclusively, watch Spanish-language TV, go to Spanish-speaking church, shop at Spanish-speaking stores, and so on. Previous generations of immigrants have had to learn English to get decent jobs and assimilate into the larger community. Because of the sheer numbers of native Spanish speakers in the past decade alone, I think that the USA will become an officially bilingual nation in a generation or two. Entonces, sera necesario para los hijos de los Dopers aprender espanol para obetenir los trabajos mejores.
I also think that you guys are making the task of learning English sound much harder than it has to be. Nobody expects immigrants to declaim Shakespearean iambic verse, but it is possible to learn functional English simply through immersion. I learned Korean by speaking it a bit at a time as I shopped, bought subway tickets, and read street signs. Trust me, Korean is a bitch to learn, but, by gum, I did it. Ditto with Spanish, French, German, Italian (though that was mostly learning from opera libretti), Mandarin, and Japanese.
I also think the Spanish speakers are being coddled vis-a-vis other immigrant groups. Look at the Ethiopian immigrants in the DC area. Yes, they have Amharic-speaking churches and many stores and restaurants with signs in their 108-letter writing system, but they also speak English, even though it’s gotta be extremely difficult for them. If English isn’t too hard for the Ethiopians, why is is so hard for Latinos, who speak a language that is virtually cognate with English?
Maybe it’s because the Ethiopians don’t have mush-headed liberals making excuses for them.
It is absurd to claim that safe driving in an English speaking country requires that the driver learn English.
All that is required for safe driving is that the driver read enough English to recognize basic signs, and notably most of these signs require only a very limited understanding of English. If it is red and octagonal, does it matter if it says stop or arrêt? The actual amout of text used in road signage is minimal. Yes, some terms would have to be learned, but that is a simple matter of adding a few English terms to a non-English discourse register, and has nothing to do with learning English as a language.
Y’know, what IS disturbing is that they become SO self-contained – I mean like you point out, Ethiopians nowadays, Poles, Italians and Jews in the last century, they all had little enclaves… but they would have to come OUT of them regularly to lead more or less complete lives. Nowadays not just Latinos but also many newer Eastern Europeans immigrant communities have adopted insular community styles.
OTOH the Chinese maintained quite “insular” communities for a long time, with no apparent harm to the capacity of later generations to integrate to the mainstream. Myself, the many years I lived Stateside I never resided in any of the barrio enclaves. Why? Because the idea that I should willingly ghettoize (in the OLD WORLD sense of “ghetto”) myself just was not an option.
**
I think the key is that word “assimilate.” Creates a powerful psychological reaction of opposition, and anyway I’m not sure that’s necessarily the goal. Maybe we should seek to just “integrate:” become a productive member of the society, be able to communicate with your fellow citizen, share in the core values of the community – but w/o loss of your unique traits.
IMO one of the psychological obstacles to integration (never mind assimilation!) with the latter immigrant generations is the loss of the sense of irreversibility of migration. Modern communications and transportation do not make it as inevitable as 100 years ago to just leave it all behind – the “Old Country” is now just a 5-hour flight away, you can reach Mama on the phone every week, even on mainstream media you can watch the news when there’s an earthquake or an election back there… You can now have a DIFFERENT American Dream: that you’ll work hard in America, build up a nice modest nest egg… and then move back to the Old Country where on that amount of US Dollars you can live quite well!
The 2nd-Generation kids, OTOH… they’re Americans all the way thru. The barrio is just “cultural” to them, it may affect how they dress or the music they listen to, but lemme tell you, their life is in English and the Old Counrty is a nice place to visit but dear G_d don’t drink the water…
**
Got news for ya, sunshine… y’all better * already* register the young’uns in the español lessons if they want the big payoff later on.
But hey… if every morning at school the kids stand up and say Juro mi lealtad a la bandera de los Estados Unidos de América, y a la república que representa… just before studying the story of how Tomás Jefferson and Alejandro Hamilton helped found the country and that has to do with why their dad has on the car a bumper-sticker that says Si quieren mi pistola que me la quiten de mis manos muertas, it’s still a great country… and if 100 years after that their grandchildren are learning Hindi, still no prob.
Entirely true. In Japan, the character from “stop” kind of looks like a cactus. You get to know it, though, because its in a red octagon.
I wonder how many people who post here would be able to understand my accent. I speak English: but how far would that get me in a supermarket in Utah?
Yay! Estonia (I am 1/16th Estonian)!
Those’d be Canadians Badum-bump! :D:D
One thing I noticed about US road signs as opposed to Canadian road signs is that, while they share the same general design, US signs seem to have a LOT more words on them.
For example, the commonest US sign for ‘no right turn on red’ has those words, while the increasingly-common Canadian sign has the symbol for ‘no right turn’ (an arrow in a red circle-and-stripe) above a stop-light symbol with the red light coloured in.
I suspect theres a policy to replace word signs with symbol signs as much as possible, at least in the Toronto area. Given the number of languages spoken here, and the number of people who don’t speak English or French, it only makes sense.
OTOH, many signs in the Toronto area, at least on the 400-series freeways, are partly bilingual English/French: the directional symbols and the street names are not translated, but directions are (east/est).
Sometimes a whole other French sign is needed though: you see one sign with ‘do not drive on paved shoulder’ followed by another with ‘interdit de circuler sur accotrement’. (I’m probably misremembering that last.)
Also, when I go to the States, one thing I notice immediately is the use of fractions in distance signs.
You have ‘Exit 2-1/2 miles’ rather than ‘Exit 2.5 miles’. Then there’s the ‘Exit 1/2 mile’ rather than ‘Exit 500 yards’ (or the Canadian equivalent, ‘Exit 800 m’)…
This thread has given me a lot to think about. Previously I just muttered “Let 'em learn English!” and thought no more of it.
I lived in Germany (nowhere near an American base) for two years, and managed to pick up enough German to go partying in the bars with the natives, conduct banking transactions, haggle in the stores, and so on. It was hard at first but I carried my little translation dictionary everywhere I went and got by somehow. Learned a bit more each day.
I still think it’s a respect thing: if you’re going to live among people who speak a different language, for the love of pete, learn enough of that language to get by. Unless, of course, you hold that country and its native inhabitants in such contempt that you feel such a thing is beneath your dignity. Then, by all means, GO HOME.
Conversely, recent immigrants have an excuse, and they’re not deaf, so shouting won’t help. On the other hand, speaking s-l-o-w-l-y and distinctly will.
I do not care for the notion of the United States being split into two cultural entities, divided by a language barrier. Historically speaking, this does a nation no good in the long run. Anyone arguing that the USA is already divided into many cultural entities, or that it has no culture at all, please stuff it, as the relevant point here is that the dominant, and only accepted national language, is English.
A bit of easily verifiable trivia for all: when the country was new, a decision had to be made about what the national language was going to be. There were so many Dutch, German, and other Teutonic people here at the time, that English only won by a few votes, or possibly one (can’t remember).
And if you think English is a pain, try a language in which there are a dozen ways to say “The”, and words longer than breath in which to say them!
I’m also picking up Spanish here and there, although conversational only, and much of it is not stuff I would wish to use when speaking with a mother-in-law. It can’t hurt, but neither do I wish to see the whole country translated for the sake of people who can’t be bothered to do as I did, and try. Nobody expects immigrants to be fluent enough to write scholarly papers, just to get by.
IMHO, the reason Spanish is becoming a second American language is that they’re such a potentially huge source of two things: Votes, and advertising targets.
Thank you AbrakaDeborah (sp?) I’m happy to see that someone else feels the same way I do. You stated it much better then I did. I don’t think it should be a law but it is about respect. I don’t feel some immigrants respect us enough to try to learn English. I don’t see any reason not to try to learn English.
Nice enough story. Too bad that the United States does not have an official national language. Care to try again and this time without identifying the working language of Congress as the national language with absolutely no evidence?
No, the story about English winning out by one vote isn’t true.
Anyhoo, English is the national language in practice. Nothing wrong with that. The language is the glue that binds the culture together, that’s all.