That attitude is just so wrong. To repeat: I live in a country in which most people don’t speak English, and I’m not going to learn the local language, not because I don’t respect the traditions of the people, their culture or their history, but because its damn hard (and I know Japanese, and have a smattering of Mandarin and Swedish). Respect has nothing to do with it. I can live in a country, respect its culture, even sings its praises, but not have to learn its language.
Lord, I hope there is more tying countries together than a simple language! Canada is going down! Switzerland is falling apart! India must no longer exist!!!
For those that say that English is the de facto language of the United States, I would like to point out that “de facto” means approximatly “in practice”. In practice, parts of the United States communicate in languages other than English. In Watsonville, CA, the “de facto” language is Spanish. To claim that the de facto language is English there would be inaccurate, because they speak freaking Spanish there.
And in Cali, at least, Spanish is not a temporary things. People have been speaking Spanish here longer than they have been speaking English, and they will continue speaking Spanish for the forseeable future. It is not like, say, Ukrainian, which is the result of a temporary trend in immigration and is not likely to continue for generations. The fact of the matter is, Spanish is one of the languages of California.
Deal with it. Learn it. Ignore it. But, really, you have no reason to resent it.
I can’t understand how people who don’t speak English think everyone should learn a second (i.e. their) language. I’ll learn a second language when you do (i.e. mine).
English is pretty much the first or second lanugage of the world, whether people want to admit it or not. And people should know enough to communicate in it. I’m not even talking about writing the great American novel. Just be able to speak it people.
Is learning a second lanuage as a grown up really that difficult? I have no background in German, yet just from hearing German cast CDS, and reading the linear notes, I can pretty much read it now, along with some Dutch & Swedish the same way. And when I got then Danish Evita, I started translating the song titles and I’ve never seen anything in Danish in my life.
In Palisade Park, New Jersey, there’s been a huge inflex of Koreans in the past 10 years. They had a huge debate whether the names of the stores and businesses had to be printed in English. The Police & Fire Depts. were demanding it, and in the end they prevailed. What does it say when you only want the name of your store in Korean? Isn’t that blatant discrimination?
Chinese is spoken by more people than English is. Does that mean everyone in the world should learn Chinese?
Well, yes, for a lot of people it is. I taught ESL for a while - there is a wide variation on how easily adults can pick up second languages. Not everyone has the gift you apparently have. Also, as someone else said previously, a lot of immigrants have very little time and/or money, both of which make the learning process a lot easier.
No more than opening up a pub in Spain and calling it “The Irish Rover” rather than “La Trotamundos Irlandés” is.
Don’t more people speak English as a first or SECOND language than any other language in the world? I seem to remember reading this somewhere, but I don’t have a site for it.
The Korean thing is also a question of alphabets. Couldn’t they at least put a phoenetic spelling in English letters on the business? The example you gave is two languages using the same letters.
Thanks for the compliment. I had a hell of a time with my one year of high school French, but it seems to still be in my head 30 years later. I can figure a lot of the Spanish speaking here, and it’s a good thing. But I don’t understand people demanding you should speak a second language when they don’t want to themselves.
[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Annie-Xmas *
Don’t more people speak English as a first or SECOND language than any other language in the world?
[QUOTE]
Ethnologue stats:
Mandarin: 874,000,000 L1 (first language) speakers, 1,052,000,000 including L2 (second language) speakers
English: 341,000,000 L1 speakers, 508,000,000 including L2 speakers
That’s, uh, quite a big difference.
And BTW:
Spanish: 322,200,000 - 358,000,000 L1; 417,000,000 L2 - not such a big difference, relatively speaking.
Erm… sorry but I’m utterly failing to grasp your point here. If it’s in a language you can’t read, why does it matter if it uses the same alphabet? I’ve seen Irish bars outside of Ireland with Gaelic names that, I’m guessing, you probably couldn’t pronounce any better than you could pronounce Korean (An Bodhrán in San Francisco springs to mind). Is that discriminating against you, (I assume) a non-Irish speaker? Do you really need to be able to pronounce the name of a business in order to patronise it?
And while I’ve never been to a country whose primary language used non-Roman characters, I wouldn’t be surprised if there were Irish pubs in some of those places that didn’t provide phonetic spellings in the national language. I doubt they turn away locals who can’t say their name correctly. Where does “discrimination” come into it?
I think the post referred to a request by the local police and fire department. It would be a lot easier to stop a robbery if the cops can read the store sign. An Bodhran is easier to read than the equivalent in Hangul or Chinese or Cyrillic.
Frankly, I don’t care what people speak as long as they also speak at least passable English if they want to survive in the US. However, if they speak Korean or Spanish, I can talk to them in their own language, so no problem there.
A valid point. I don’t dispute that. I am also sure that it is in the store’s best interest, from a business standpoint, that potential patrons can pronounce its name. I’m just taking issue with the notion of “discrimination”.
Wait, I’m confused. They should speak English, but if they aren’t going to speak English, it’s OK as long as they speak another language you can understand?
I had a look at this interesting site, but I’m surprised by the low number of second language speakers displayed. Do they include only the second language fluent speakers?
I’m pretty sure that more than 167 millions people learnt (or tried to learn) english, and more than 59 millions spanish…
Ruadh,
Did you notice that Annie’s examples were all of European languages? Someone learning a language that’s part of his (or her) native language’s language family is quite different than someone learning a language that is not.
I don’t know, to be honest. But even if you include people who aren’t fluent in English, you’d still have to go quite a ways to reach the number of L1/L2 Mandarin speakers.
I’ve been stationed all over the world, and learning a bit, just a bit, of the native language puts you in good stead with the locals every time. Even if they speak english. After all, I was in their country, and believe it or not, some Americans take offense to people who don’t speak english, even in their own country. Those people of course, should be beaten severely.
Can you imagine the expense involved by maintaining 20 different languages on all documents that a city might have at the Courthouse? How about school teachers faced with a large influx of non-english speaking children at school?
How about translators for the court system? People are quick to yell racism or xenophobia, but it’s simply a matter of practicality. You move to an english speaking country, learn english. Pretty simple when you think about it. A common language is the thread that ties our differing cultures together. It’s in everyone’s best interests to learn the native language.
Annie-Xmas: But I don’t understand people demanding you should speak a second language when they don’t want to themselves.
I’m not sure that’s an entirely fair way of putting it. I don’t see immigrants demanding that “you” or any other random English speaker they interact with should have to speak to them in their own language. Instead, what they seem to be asking for is that in certain official situations, a limited quantity of important material should be translated or interpreted into their own language. They aren’t telling anybody to learn their language—we have plenty of people in this country who already know their language. They’re just asking that some of those people be employed to provide assistance, verbal or written, in understanding important official communications. Asking a government to provide a translation or translator is not the same thing as demanding that the monoglots who are already here “should speak a second language”.
Tedster has a point that this does cost money, but so does all the paperwork required to deal with people inadvertently breaking laws and missing deadlines and so forth because the information they need exists only in a language they can’t read. Considering how integral immigrants are to our history and culture, and considering that (as others here have noted) the lack of English comprehension is generally a non-issue after the first generation, I don’t really feel that it’s a dreadful burden for Americans to allow (and even to assist) some immigrants to live here without acquiring English immediately (or ever, for that matter).
Actually, they were all germanic languages, the closest to english.
Anyway, it’s quite simple to figure out if learning a foreign language is easy or not : give it a try. You’ll discover that indeed it’s quite easy. You won’t need much more than some years of study…
It’s not a matter of allowing them to live here without learning english. It’s a matter of us spending millions of dollars providing publications in a myriad of different languages and dialects. Drivers license testing is just one area that, after a moments thought, can be realized to cause inordinate problems in an already problematic city service.
This is extremely expensive and many towns don’t have the money to run things adequately with the status quo much less playing universal translator. You might not feel that it’s a “dreadful burden” but it is.
I’ve actually done this:
[ul][li]Rated as proficient in Korean by the US Army (I had lived in Seoul, Korea for over a year basically immersed in the language).[/li][li]Graduated from the Defense Language Institute’s North Vietnamese language course (that’s 11 months long).[/li]Took a few courses in Japanese at the University of Maryland when stationed in Japan & was basically immersed in the language after working hours.[/ul]
Do you have a cite for it being extremely expensive? I seem to recall reading that it costs a lot less, in terms of a locality’s overall budget, than the English-Only crowd likes to claim.
Anyway, you have to keep in mind that these translations aren’t provided just for people who aren’t trying to learn English (and as I’ve said every time we have this debate, I’m far from convinced that those people are anything more than a tiny minority of immigrants to America). Government documents are frequently very complicated and even someone who’s reached a level of conversational fluency in English isn’t necessarily going to be able to understand the language used in their tax forms, voting guides, etc. By not providing translations you’re effectively excluding anyone who hasn’t totally mastered the language from many aspects of civic life, and I don’t see how that benefits anyone.
Actually, though my response was adressed to you, the part about the difficulty to learn a language was an answer to Annie’s post. I should have made that clearer.
Also, I don’t think that most people, even if they take night course,etc…and live in the country will be fluent enough in a language to get a well paid job in the said country…(except if they have learnt the language before, of course). Perhaps you managed to do that, but in this case, I would guess you’re the exception rather than the norm.
I am constantly getting Spanish customers who think everyone should speak their language. Indeed, it is not unusual to pick up the phone and get a barrage of Spanish, not even asking if I speak the language (I understand some, but not that much).
I am been told many, many times that “You should speak Spanish if you live in this country.” People who don’t have English as a second language have told me this.
The Palisade Park Koreans either want you to understand Korean or not use their businesses. I choose the latter.
I don’t believe that it ought to be “required” that non english speaking immigrants learn American English as a second language. Driving considerations not withstanding, I just think it’s a good idea based on premise that if they want to take full advantage of what the majority of this country does have to offer, in terms of employment outside of the service field types of jobs, that non english speaking persons will simply need better language skill(s) to land better paying jobs with benefits. It’s obvious that securing many of the decent paying manufacturing types of employment oppertunities that are available to anyone who does speak and understand english, that only those people who can clearly understand written and verbal communtications are the ones who will be considered for the positions available.