It’s true alright. Any Jew will tell you that Christians are in error. But that error is not a sin. Heaven is promised to all who are righteous.
If I called one of the gay Dopers a cocksucker, I could hide behind the defense of accuracy. This wouldn’t change the fact that it is a rude and offensive thing to say. Coulter was rude and offensive. As somebody who makes a living by speaking in the public eye, she deserves to be pitted.
What I am saying is that these are the only three options in considering the two mutually contradictory propositions that God had a son and that God did not have a son. If one is true the other is false. Or possibly they are both false if there is no God.
I realize I did not say that in so many words, but I guess my big mistake was in assuming that people like you would use common sense and understand my comments without overexplaining them. Besides, I am always afraid that if I write too much, people like you will have trouble because their lips will get tired with all the reading.
Let me explain it again.
“My son bought an apple today”
“My son did not buy an apple today”
If one of these statements is true, the other becomes automatically false. There is a third option (in regards to my son buying an apple, NOT in regards to the entire universe or even the entire world of fruit retailing).
The third option is that I have no son. Which makes both of the statements false.
You could maybe allege that in this case statement number 2 is correct. But statement no. 2 is based on the understanding that my son exists, just as Judaism is based on the belief that God exists even if they deny that he had a son.
Otherwise, you could say that the statement “Every person who was never born did not watch TV today” is esssentially correct. It is correct but it is also ridiculous.
My post did not contain an ad hominem, nor did it have anything to do with you being gay. You started out by saying that you think all religion is a form of “mass mental illness.” You’ve established, right from the beginning, an overwhelming bias against religious thought. Which renders your authority on what religious people “really” believe immediatly suspect. The immediate comparison that sprang to mind was that of any of the so-called “experts” on homosexuality who have no idea what homosexuality actually is, and are simply attempting to demonstrate the righteousness of their preconceptions, with no real interest in any sort of objective truth or meaningful communication.
I’d like the record to show that it was the defendent, and not myself, who invited comparison between where he puts his dick and where he gets his arguments.
Yeah, you sure have studied religion “extensively,” haven’t you? Tell me, if you don’t even know that (pretty fuckin’ basic) fact about Judaism, why should we assume that your knowledge of Christianity is any better founded?
I don’t mean to imply that there aren’t significant disagreements between the two religions. Of course there are; otherwise, we wouldn’t consider them two different religions.
Almost everyone I know believes something incorrect, even with passion, even letting it affect large parts of their lives. I’m only well acquainted with one person who’s right about everything, though even I have, in the past, been wrong. I’ve seen people argue and debate over food, language, economics, a million things, and never thought to myself “How awfully tragic, how terribly misfortunate, that at least one of those two must be wrong and doing things for no good reason.”
Not everyone thinks holding a false belief or failing to hold a true belief condemns you to hell, even in religious matters. You have the testimony of quite a few people on both Judaism and Christianity in this thread. You are clearly completely off base with regards to Judaism, and blowing things out of proportion with regards to Christianity.
Now, I agree with you on some of your main points: for example, I agree that it’s reasonable enough to suppose that many Christians would prefer that more people convert to Christianity, would think that this would improve them in some way. And I agree that there are definite disagreements between major religious views and they cannot be all correct; some people are out there believing things which are wrong. I just don’t see why you’re all worked up over this.
So you are telling me that all believing Jews believe that there is an afterlife and a heaven, at a minimum? Becuase rthat is not what I have heard from some Jews, including some who are my own relatives. They say that they believe that when you die, you die, that’s it. In their opinion, that makes righteous living even more wonderful, because you are doing it with NOOO outside motivation, but only for its own sake. Which, I must say, is a position I agree with as an atheist.
Gee, does that reasoning also apply to the Pope, and to religious people in general? Do they have an overwhelming bias FOR religious thought that renders their authority immediately suspect?
Apart from yourself, whom else should we view as being above suspicion?
What’s that you say, Miller? You are not above suspicion of bias?
Come on, now! Either you are or you are not.
If you are not above bias, could you point out where you have been bullshitting us wih your bias?
If you are above all suspicion, maybe you could tell us when you got to be God.
Which is exactly why you’re going to Hell! Atheists seem very obtuse on this point.
There are very few things that all Jews believe. Even the fundamental question of “Who is a Jew?” has no clear answer. But (having accepted the basis of Judaism as true) you die and that’s it, how does the witch of Endor summon up Samuel’s spirit? Then again, Ecclesiastes does seem to argue there is no afterlife*. OTOH, Elijah says “The soul that sinneth shall die” which would seem to say that there are everlasting souls for the good.
More if there is no afterlife, then how does G-d reward the good? If there is no reward, why bother believing in Him, keeping kosher etc?
ETA Re Doing Good For Its Own Sake
There is a tale of a rabbi who receives a message from G-d. The message is “You’re going to hell.” The rabbi rejoices. When asked why he says “Before when I did a good deed I had to wonder if I was doing it for its own sake or whether I was trying to get into heaven. Now, I don’t have to wonder.”
Your earlier post said or at least strongly implied that all Jews believe in an afterlife, even if they disagree on the stay in Hell, maximum sentence, etc. But now, are you backtracking and telling me that one can be perfectly good Jew and NOT BELIEVE IN AN AFTERLIFE AT ALL! I think you are starting to suck and blow, Doc (No, that is not a gay joke. 
)
I have never heard of anyone being a good Christian and yet not believing in an afterlife. If Christ died for our salvation (which every Christian believes, no matter what sect) then what is he saving us from if there is no afterlife?
So, do you now admit that there can be perfectly good Jews who do not believe in an afterlife?
If so, then I am right in saying that Judaism has no FORMAL, COMPULSORY doctrine of an afterlife? Because Chrsitianity DOES have one. So I wascorrect in saying that that is a basic difference.
I’m going back on what I said, so much as clarifying. I should have thought to say “the overwhelming majority of Jews believe”. There is on almost all the issues a small group of dissenters. The Torah barely mentions an afterlife. So there is no formal opinion. But, Jewish folk tradition is filled with ideas of heaven. More, various prayers speak of ressurection in the Messianic age.
I should worry? Either there is or there is not a Hell. If not I have nothing to worry about. If there is, one of my Jewish relatives is a lawyer. I’m laughing either way! 
Oh, you shouldn’t worry, if you’re going to Hell, you’ll have no trouble finding a lawyer.
Sorry, Doc, but I ain’t lettin ya squirm out of that one. You originally said, “We don’t lack a position on the afterlife.”
Now you are telling me that you have a whole host of positions, based on “folk traditions” to boot.
But you have neglected to answer my original question. Can a good Jew believe in no afterlife at all? I am assuming your answer will be yes, even if I had to pull it out of you through the nostrils, as we say in French.
If so, then consider what you are really saying. You began by telling me that I was wrong when I said that Judaism has no real doctrinal position on an afterlife. Now you tell me that that position includes every possible opinion including believing that ther is *no * afterlife. As a Rabbi once sid to me, if a term mens everything it means nothing.
My original point is that Christianity firmly preachs the existence of an afterlife, and demands that you believe it, and Judaiism does not. So on that point I am NOT incorrect.
There IS no point in what religions do, Doc. That is the point of atheism, to put an end to the insanity. Jews and Muslims mutilate their children’s genitals (and I include circumcision here. If I could find the fucking doctor who did me without my permission I would sue him), keep kosher, etc. all for nothing.
Just like Christians and Muslims, you are doing all of this for a non-existnt being. But since this is VERY hard for you to admit, I agree from the beginning that there is no point in telling you this, since you are very unlikely to abandon your belief in God.
From a Jewish theological perspective, the worship of Jesus is an error but not a sin. Christians might be misinformed but that doesn’t necessarily make them unrighteous. In Judaism, people are judged on what kind of people they are, not what they believe.
I think it would be closer to an “official” Jewish doctrine to say that there will be a day of resurrection and judgement of the dead, but beliefs about what happens after that exactly are variable and non-dogmatic. Some idea of Heaven is ubiquitous among Jews but it’s not considered to be an important question and it’s no sin not to believe in it.
Holy shit. only here could a righteous religious debate evolve from a generic Coulter bash!
Can a good Jew believe there is no afterlife? Yes/ no (Check one).
Can a good Jew believe there is an afterlife? Yes/no? (Check one)
If you have checked “Yes” twice, does it not follow that Judaiism has no formal doctrine of an afterlife? Even if it has a wide range of speculations, some more popular than others?
Since the Christian God at least (and certainly Allah and the Jewish G-d) is going to fry my ass for being a fruit, maybe I should enlist not only the help of a good lawyer but also of J. Edgar Hoover and Roy Cohn. I strongly suspect they are both in the place that needs no heating, and I have reason to believe that they would be sympathetic to my cause for some reason.
Welcome to being an atheist. We just don’t happen to believe in the “hell” part. What most theists seem to believe is that without that threat of hell, we can’t be moral. Don’t they realize how stupid that is? That’s like saying a doctor won’t help someone unless someone is standing over him with a whip.
Valteron, it is my experience on this board is that it’s OK to say you’re an atheist, but if you say that someone else believes a lie, all hell breaks loose. No matter how contradictory, outdated, irrational, or just plain ridiculous most of these religious texts are, nobody likes to hear it. I think most religious people believe that all atheists have firm “beliefs” about the nonexistance of human soul, rather than simply stating they believe what the evidence shows, which, currently, is nothing. It is rather like what Ann Coulter said: yes, it’s true, but nobody wants to hear it because the reality of it ruins their fantasy about their own religion. If Jews think everyone else is going to heaven, that’s great for all monotheists, because they don’t have to openly hate Jews the way they might hate Christians or Muslims (depending on whether they are Christians or Muslims.) If Christians think Jews are short-bus Christians for not keeping up with the times then they don’t have to hate Jews, they can just feel sorry for them and smugly superior (a la Ann Coulter). But if you say “so what, God doesn’t exist anyway”, you undermine all those religions. That pisses damn near everybody off.
Do readers of Tolkein ask HOW Gandalf coms back to life? Do Christians ask how Jesus did it?
I once spoke to a Christian who believed in the literal truth of Noah’s Ark. He explained to me that God could have made it possible for Noah and his family to care for several million species for 40 days by putting them all into a deep sleep (the animals, not the family) .
So I asked, if all God wanted was to keep one family of humans and two of every species from drowning, why bother with an Ark at all? Why not put them all into a deep sleep, and suspend it for 40 days over the flood waters?
I was told that it is not up to me to question the ways of God. That is when I understood the patently ridiculous nature but diabolical genius of religion. Faith means means believing without evidence.
In other words, all religions make a virtue of irrational belief in absurdities for which they have no proof. Therein lies their power, and their ability to remain immune from rational thought.
Then you get all upset when a person like Ann Coulter takes the insanity a step further?