As a Perfect-American, I take exception to Coulter’s remarks. But I’m a little surprised at her- I mean, she hadn’t given any indications of religious lunacy before.
:rolleyes:
In all honesty, just to humor her, I would go with her as far as “invade their countries, kill their leaders” if she could come up with a realistic way to pay for it while fulfilling the government’s obligations to the health and wellbeing of its people.
That’s the part they always leave out, though, isn’t it? “Nevermind famine and pestilence here–there are A-rabs to kill! Here’s $13 billion–go raise some hell!”
Dear e.
Sorry, I’m still recovering from my motorcycle accident. But I have forwarded your request to Mel Gibson.
All the best,
George
P.S. Have you heard the one about the Irish Catholic George M. Cohan trying to check into a hotel. Cohan says to the clerk "Gentleman, I’m George M. Cohan. Could I please get a room?"The clerk says “I’m sorry, we don’t allow Jews to stay here.” Cohan replies “I thought you were a gentleman and you thought I was a Jew. We were both mistaken.”
FROM THE DESK OF: Mel Gibson
TO: George Clooney
RE: Fucking Ann Coulter
Puuuuuusssssssssssssyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy! Puuuuuussssssssssssssyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!
crosses legs
Before anyone goes after me with a heavy menorah, let me explain what I mean by “right”.
As an atheist who extensively studies what I regard as the mass mental illness of religion (ALL RELIGIONS) I can attest that Ann Coulter is simply stating what Chrsitianity actually teaches, but that most Christians in modern society are too polite to say or willing to admit to themselves. Or maybe it is something they will not say publicly for fear of being labeled “anti-semitic”.
The simple fact is that all Christian sects DO believe that Jesus was the son of God and that all human beings should convert to Christianity and worship Jesus as the Son of God. The idea that Christianity is the completion of and replacement for Judaiism is firmly rooted in every Christian sect whose dogmas I have examined.
Now, Judaism believes he was NOT the son of God. (Neither does Islam, but that is another matter).
So, logic tells us that two mutually exclusive propositions cannot both be true. Jesus either was, or was not the son of God.
On the flip side, any Jew who affirms that Jesus was NOT the son of God and the messiah promised by the prophets MUST,* ipso facto*, be saying that Christian are WRONG in affirming that he was.
I mean, if I got a Rabbi on TV and really pinned him down on this, he would have to admit, like Ann Coulter in reverse, that those who hold that Jesus was the Son of God and the messiah are, in his opinion, WRONG. The rabbi may dance around the question by saying that he respects Christians and respects their right to differ, but that is not the issue. The issue is, does he blieve that people who think Jesus was the son of God are believeing something that is WRONG? He would have to either answer that in his opinion they are believing a falsehood, or else reject his own Judaiism.
There is a third way out of this. My way, the atheist way. I said earlier that two mutually contradictory propositions could NOT both be right.
I forgot to mention that they CAN both be wrong.
For example, take these propositions:
-Bigfoot has only one child, a daughter named Louise.
-Bigfoot has never had any children.
Now both of these cannot be right. But in fact they are both wrong, inasmuch as Bigfoot does not exist.
Well, that last bit is a minor niggle about how you treat statements with terms referring to nonexistent objects. It seems sensible to me to say that the atheist agrees with the Jew on the specific position that Jesus was not the son of God, both of them disagreeing with the Christian here.
So, yes, Judaism and Christianity, as generally understood, do espouse at least some contradictory beliefs. It’s a slight leap from there to say that Christianity advocates for the conversion of Jews to Christianity, though a fairly plausible one, since we might well expect most people to want others to not believe false things and to believe true things. But the fervor with which ones cares about obtaining this, and the means one accepts in that pursuit can vary. At any rate, it would not be a special slur on Christianity to note that its followers would like it if others realized what they saw to be the truth of their beliefs; the same would hold of you and your atheism, or any other beliefs, religious, scientific, historical, mundane, or whatever kind.
[I was going to say more, but I think it’d just be repeating everything that’s been said in this thread already. I guess my main reaction to your post is “Yeah, Christianity and Judaism disagree on some issues. So what?”]
You would however be quite incorrect in your assumption that Jews and Christians are merely mirrior images of each other on this point.
Perhaps uniquely among monotheistic religions, in Judaism you can be a non-Jew, and still just as morally correct as a Jew.
Please note the existance of the Noahide laws:Seven Laws of Noah - Wikipedia
For a Jew, a Christian is “righteous gentile” (and thus of equal moral worth to a Jew) if he or she observes the Noahide Laws.
With all due respect, your post reveals that, though you are a self-proclaimed Athiest, you think like a Christian - that is, in terms of being theologically right or wrong as the most important thing. A Jew may think quite differently - in terms of being morally right or wrong. Many Jews simply don’t care much for theology, as unlike the case with Christianity, theology doesn’t actually form a large part of the religion.
The real issue, when it comes to Bigfoot, is not whether he has a daughter or not, and not even whether he exists or not - but is he righteous? 
But ultimately, the rabbi is under no obligation to give a shit what members of other faiths think, and that makes a world of difference between him and his Christian and Muslim counterparts.
Fascinating post, Valteron. I’ve always felt that the best way to understand something is to ask the opinion of someone who is openly hostile to it. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to ask James Dobson to explain what homosexuality is “really” about. I’m sure the response I get will be every bit as useful and insightful as your own words here.
I realize that Judaiism is not a proselytizing religion. On the contrary, while they do not 100% refuse converts, Jews admit that they willingly make conversion difficult.
But if the Rabbi does not give a shit about all the gentiles who believe falsehoods, what does that say about his moral qualities? If I see a lady leaving a washroom in a restaurant with a piece of toilet paper sticking out of her panti-hose, and into which she has stuffed her skirt by mistake, should I tell her? Or should I say that itdoes not concern me and let her parade through the restaurant like that?
I am reminded of a hilarious Seinfeld episode when Elaine’s burly boyfriend David told her she was going to Hell because she did not believe in God. Elaine was enraged that David did not try to convert her to his theism. Why? NOT because she wanted to believe in God, but because it really bothered her that David did not care that she was going to Hell, even if it was only in his opinion that she was going there!
Rabbi, either Jesus is the son of God and deserves to be worshiped or he is not and over a billion Christians are believing a lie. And you, Rabbi, are indifferent to the fact that they are believing this lie? And you will not lift a finger to correct them? Indeed, if they come to you attempting to adhere to what YOU, Rabbi, KNOW to be the truth, you will reject and discourage them because their mother was not Jewish???
FOR SHAME!!! I really do not know which attitude is worse. Christians who try to convert Jews or Jews who refuse to convert Christians.
AAd
I realize that this is the Pit, so I guess your *ad hominem * swipe at me and zeroing in on the fact that I am gay are all fair ball here. But would you mind looking at my arguments instead of where I put my cock?
Either Jesus is or is not the son of God. The only other option is that there is no God to have sons in the first place.
You’re gay? Who knew? Or, maybe, who cares?
For a very good reason.
Putty believed Elaine was going to hell. Rabbis don’t believe Christians go to hell. Their belief in Jesus does not bar them from being righteous gentiles. Nor, does it condemn them to hell. That is the difference. A rabbi will be concerned as to whether a Christian is acting in a moral manner. If they are, then they are righteous, going to heaven and all is well.
Because if they convert, then they must follow 613 commandments instead of just seven. Much of their previous behavior, now becomes sinful thus turning a righteous gentile into a sinning Jew. Why convert a gentile, if that gentile is righteous? Doing so greatly increases the odds of their sinning. Besides which, they can reject Christ, become Noahide and still be righteous without becoming a Jew.
Judaism teaches that all people can be righteous and attain heaven, regardless of their religious faith or lack thereof. You don’t seem to understand this. Rabbis aren’t interested in ‘correcting’ Christians. They are only concerned that Christians behave in a righteous manner.
Why should they convert?
I love the way some people try to imply that the difference is something like a disagreement about the colour of altar cloths.
The Christian belief in the divinity of Christ and in Salvation through Christ for an eternity in Heaven or Hell, versus the Jewish non-belief in Christ and their lack of a position on an afterlife, are not mere trifles.
At least ONE of the religions is terribly wrong and is getting people to do all sorts of things for no good reason, or, as I believe, they are both wrong, in which case millions of Jews and well over a billion Christians are regulating their lives based on a falsehood.
Whichever planet you’re posting from sounds pretty strange. If the only options there are Abrahamic religions and militant atheism, I’m glad I don’t live there.
If that is true, then I sit corrected. But what I said for Christians still remains true. Namely, that they see themselves as essentially a perfection of and replacement to Judaism. And therefore, it IS logical that they should want Jews to convert, since they believe that theirs is the way to salvation.
Like David Putty in Seinfeld, they DO believe those who reject Jesus will not find salvation. Their very religion forces them to be the way they are. Ann Coulter is simply more blunt about it.
Bokonon teaches us, in the First Calypso, that if you are going to believe a lie, and you very likely will, then believe the lies that make you strong, wise, and kind.
We don’t lack a position on the afterlife. All the sages will agree that there is a heaven and that the righteous go there after death. There is no unified position on what happens to the wicked after death.
-There is no hell and all go to heaven
-There is a hell but you only spend 2 months there maximum
-There is an eternal hell.
-The souls of the wicked simply cease to exist on bodily death.
There are of course scriptural cites backing up all the options.
Hell, a webbot can post stuff like that. Maybe there’s no you.