When did anyone claim that?
Yes, there were hooligans doing hooligan things which the antisemites used as pretext for their attacks. Just like every other Pogrom in history had a story explaining why actually the Jews were at fault.
No one denies the pretext. I deny that the pretext is important. If it wasn’t Maccabi fans, there’d be some other reason to go on a Jew Hunt.
You said, for instance:
You also questioned the accuracy of the timeline on Wikipedia (as it was then, I haven’t kept up with the article).
Those aren’t the same thing. That his wife flirted with another man might be the pretext to the husband beating her, but does nothing to shift the blame, which is entirely on the perpetrator. (Indeed, the flirting might even be a cause in the counterfactual sense that had it not occurred, neither would the beating have; but causality isn’t moral responsibility, although the distinction is lost on many these days.)
And how does that contradict the pretext for the pogrom being hooligans?
Are you denying that the attacks were preplanned on Telegram and other messaging apps?
Because ‘days ahead’, there were no hooligans, to the best of my knowledge.
Obviously not.
Days ahead they were planning the attack, knowing the Maccabi fans would be coming. Some of the Telegram messages talk about places Maccabi fans would be staying while visiting Amsterdam, and putting up Palestinian flags and Pro Palestine displays which the plotters believed would make the Maccabi fans “come like rats”.
If I know Maccabi* fans (or fans of any European soccer team) are coming, and I want to go on a Jew Hunt, I can count on some level of hooliganism occurring - especially if I plan out ways to provoke it.
*We keep calling them “Maccabi” in this thread but that’s a little like calling ManU “the United team”. There are lots of Maccabi teams in Israel; Maccabi Tell Aviv fucking sucks, Maccabi Haifa all the way! Green and white forever.
The Wikipedia article “November 2024 Amsterdam attacks”* still claims in the lead paragraph that the events didn’t begin until after the soccer game and that the violence only targeted Maccabi fans. We now know, and have known for 48 hours, that these claims are objectively false. The takeover of any pages on Wikipedia related to Israel or Jews by the most pro-terrorism spin possible has been widely discussed elsewhere.
*The article on the military response for the October 7 massacres is simply called “Gaza genocide” no matter how many objections to this are raised on neutrality grounds. The article on the Jew Hunt will, of course, never be renamed “2024 Amsterdam pogrom” or “2024 Europe-wide Jew Hunt movement” no matter how much evidence of its nature is produced - it is simply not possible for Wikipedia to acknowledge that they were wrong in that direction.
Ok, so because I’m really loosing the thread of what it is you’re saying here: this occurred before the events of Wednesday, November 6, i.e. the burning of the Palestinian flag by Maccabi Fans etc., yes? (Which, as I shouldn’t have to point out, obviously in no way excuses or justifies any anti-Semitic organized violence, i.e. the events of the following days both in and beyond Amsterdam, afterwards.)
Before Nov 6 and before the Israeli fans actually arrived, there was a planned protest right next to where the Maccabi TA fans would be, that was being described by organizers as a “direct clash with Mossad and the IOF” 
. There was also some chatter on social media about provoking the Jews into fights, protesting their presence, etc etc. There were enough threats for violence that Israel warned the Dutch authorities.
The specific “Jew Hunt” texts happened after Oct 6 but preplanning for Oct 7. (Again, this is the equivalent of me and my buds counter protesting a Pro Palestine encampment, not liking the language they use, so coming back to town the next night to beat anyone who looks Arab).
What exactly are you trying to get at with this line of questioning? None of it seems relevant?
You’re really making this more difficult than it needs to be. You’re clearly right that the opening paragraph is misleading, and that may well be deliberate, but it doesn’t actually do either of the things you claim. The paragraph is as follows:
On 7 November 2024, following a UEFA Europa League football match in Amsterdam, Netherlands, between Israeli club Maccabi Tel Aviv and Dutch club AFC Ajax, some Maccabi Tel Aviv fans were targeted in a series of attacks.
This doesn’t say, nor imply, that nothing happened on the days prior, nor that nobody besides Maccabi fans were targeted. So you’re arguing for a bias, and may well be right in that, but in support point to something that’s clearly not accurate, weakening your own claim. That’s why I’m such a stickler for the actual facts of the matter: the only thing worse than a good argument against your position is a bad argument in favor, because this makes you look like you misrepresent facts in service of your case.
The infuriating thing is that this clearly isn’t necessary: there obviously was organized violence against Jews far transcending any local flare-up of violence. This is horrible and needs to be firmly opposed! The actual facts of the case clearly detail this.
Ok, thanks for providing clarity here.
It might not be relevant to you, but I think getting an ironclad narrative of the facts of the matter, besides being intrinsically valuable, allows a more accurate picture of the degree and spread of anti-Semitic sentiments. You might not agree—that’s fine, I don’t really require your agreement. But certainly, even so, there’s no harm in establishing this narrative, even if you think it’s irrelevant; you’re after all free to ignore it.
This isn’t looking good:
ETA: Withdrawn, hijack-ish.
Re: @SunUp’s edited post, the German youth team is Makkabi Berlin.
The article also mentions a man who was asked if he was Jewish at a restaurant when wearing his Makkabi Berlin scarf, and when he confirmed he was, he was viciously assaulted.
Maccabi sports clubs date back to the end of the 1800s and are a worldwide phenomenon. They predate Israel significantly.
In the case of this German youth team, they have nothing to do with Israel nor Zionism. Other than being Jews, of course.
Man, I’ve spent so much time recently worrying about the state of things in America that I sometimes forget how fucked up my own country is. It’s truly shameful, more so of course because every German should know exactly the suffering and horror this leads to.
I was also wondering why so many teams have this name.
The Berlin attack seems worse because it’s on a German Jewish team not an Israeli one.
Probably inspired by media coverage of Amsterdam - it’s a general problem that media coverage can spark more violence. This also seems to be what happened in the Mosque arson @Kimstu mentioned: the first ‘attack’ was later found to be an accident, but the publicity resulted in two actual copycat attacks! Don’t know what we can do about this, though.
Well, if you haven’t noticed, there’s been a massive surge in nationalism/populism/reactionism/etc the world over. From Argentina, to Sweden, to Germany, to China, to India, and on and on.
The US is just the largest canvas.
(I know places like India are larger, but I don’t just mean land mass or population)
No, it hasn’t escaped my notice (would that it had, for my mental well-being). But even though I’m the furthest thing from a patriot, there’s a part of me who is just all the more saddened that the lessons of the past seem so easily forgotten in the face of hate and right-wing populism here in Germany.
But that’s really somewhat besides the point of this thread.
While this is true, and a serious and growing problem in Germany as well as other parts of Europe, I don’t know if the mob chasing the Jewish soccer players while chanting “Free Palestine” were right-wing populists… That seems a bit farfetched.
Maybe that’s what you meant by the above?
I wasn’t particularly focused on that incident; the rise of right-wing populism in Germany, as exemplified by the popularity of the Alternative for Germany (AfD), is a major contributing factor to the increase of anti-Semitism over here (the former party leader, Alexander Gauland, once called the Holocaust ‘bird shit on the 1000 year history’ of Germany).
Undoubtedly, this is all true.
This particular incident appears to have been perpetrated by the Green and Red prongs of the antisemitic trident rather than the Brown one. And undoubtedly, the Browns will use it for their benefit.
I believe the Turkish community in Germany mostly support Erdogan, and I don’t think he’s left. Minorities voting for left-wing parties is more based on interests than ideology.