A possible solution to the recent uprising.

[GrandWino]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

Let’s face it, YOU were one of the reasons those days came to an abrupt end.

Pretty strong accusation. Got a cite?

[Measure_for_Measure]

@Giraffe

You don’t say. Care to elaborate?

In the past I’ve come and gone at this board. Since I had multi-months absences I was able to perceive changes in the feel of this board. The Pit definitely evolved over time and definitely became less mod-friendly. I personally never ascribed that to one Pit moderator or another. But who knows?

While I’m not claiming that there was an era of constant paint-peeling attacks on the moderation here, I think I could substantiate a shift in tone. Broadly speaking, newbies opposed the rough moderation here in 2000-2001, to the vast amusement of the rest of us. Today, the moderation is milder in tone but with somewhat narrower lines drawn; the whining and the complaints by some established posters is higher. Of course most don’t participate in ATMB and don’t see a need to.

Also, I think the proposal in the OP is dubious, misguided and counter-productive in practice.

@GrandWino

Pretty strong accusation. Got a cite?

Too easy. Giraffe headed the Pit during the big Pit brouhaha. The claim only involves partial responsibility. Since Giraffe had a modicum of line authority at the time, he shares some responsibility unless he is whiner, which he is not. Really: he’s a sensible guy though I have a markedly different stance from him. My point here is narrow and I don’t have a problem with Giraffe’s request for clarification.

[Erdosain]

So, according to Dex, Giraffe’s “do-nothing” moderation in the Pit led directly to someone calling Lynn the c-word. Since Dex made this comment as a poster, not a moderator, presumably, we are allowed to pit him, right? Not that he would be able to read it, since he gets the vapors when he reads profanity in close proximity to his username.

[Giraffe]

If no one minds, I’d prefer to hear Dex explain what he meant in more detail before people start with any speculation or Pittings or whatnot.

[Guinastasia]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

Sorry, Giraffe, I know you loved the free-for-all days because you never had to do any moderating. Let’s face it, YOU were one of the reasons those days came to an abrupt end.

:eek:

If the comments accusing mods of favoritism towards Czarcasm were considered insults, I don’t see how this isn’t as well.

[Heffalump_and_Roo]

@Giraffe

The moderators here tend to focus on how moderation-related issues impact them, but rarely on how they impact the posters. People are happier when they feel heard, and you guys would have a much more representative sense of the pulse of the board if random posters felt they could chime in whenever they wanted in these types of threads without having a masters in ATMB.

Which posters should they be focusing on? Posters have differing opinions on each issue, so there isn’t any one opinion to be heard. There are always competing interests and ideas.

The form of the complaint counts because it impacts who shows up to voice their opinion. If the environment is one in which people are flaming each other, mostly people who enjoy flaming and watching flaming will show up for that. That allows policy to be potentially shaped by those people.

But everyone can post in a civil manner, so creating an environment where more people can voice their opinion allows for more people to be heard.

As long as there is moderation, there will be people who feel marginalized by the modding or who feel the modding is unfair. I think that the mods at the SDMB do an outstanding job of responding to those people consistently and fairly.

[dropzone]

@armedmonkey

I’m proposing a release valve. A single sticky, just one permanent thread, so stuff like this doesn’t pollute the rest of the board.

I give it six months before it’s longer than “Stupid Republican Idea of the Day.” Any takers? :rolleyes: <-light-hearted sarcasm smilie.

[Springtime_for_Spacers]

@Giraffe

Here’s the funny thing: those bad, awful days where the staff were constantly being abused in the Pit? They never actually happened. The vast majority of Pittings over staff actions ended up overwhelmingly in favor of the staff. Having such discussions in the Pit in fact allowed regular posters to properly defend the mods by telling the OPs in no uncertain terms why they were complete nimrods. Whereas holding them in ATMB, where any poster can criticize moderators but no one should be criticizing other posters, tends to amplify the critical comments, IMO. Posters who might otherwise tell a complainer he’s being an unreasonable jerk if it were within the rules simply elect not to post.

I know the cruelty of the Pit toward staff is the story that was told to justify the change, and many people have simply assumed that it must be true if that was the reason given, but both then and now I’ve not found a single person able to supply some links to back up this claimed systematic abuse. I even tried to help a few months back, when the claim was made, with a link to all the Pit threads of the period leading up to the change but still it amounted to nothing.

Of course, people’s memories can differ, so if someone wants to take a crack at scrolling back in time and grabbing a list of Pit threads that demonstrate this systematic pattern of staff abuse, I’d be happy to have my ignorance fought with the actual facts.

That link now goes to the first page of the Pit.

[Aquadementia]

I’ve got a better idea. How about we keep it all in ATMB and when talking about moderation actions no swearing at each other or calling names. First side to resort to that loses.

Seems all the pit is good for is bitching. That’ s all a thread like that is going to be.
If someone has a legit complaint they should be able to back it up with a good argument and cites.
We’ve got plenty of forum lawyers here so it shouldn’t be a problem.

You know, people could PM the mods too.

[zweisamkeit]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

**Sorry, Giraffe, I know you loved the free-for-all days because you never had to do any moderating. **Let’s face it, YOU were one of the reasons those days came to an abrupt end.

…Wow. Is this an example of “how a smart employer/boss can be critical of an employee in a non-insulting, positive way” for message boards?

[chacoguy]

It can’t possibly be an insult, as that would be against the rules.

[dropzone]

(Adding Dex to my list of mods who have gone too long without a vacation.)

Really, guys, I know you dismiss my idea as, “That’s just silly dropzone attacking us in his passive-aggressive manner,” but I have taken some vacations from the board–not always voluntarily–and found that it cleared my head. And I’m just a poster. You have both been modding for over a decade, and that’s been a full-time, high-pressure, thankless unpaid job on top of your real lives. Take a few months off and let someone else have some fun.

[Krav_Manga]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

I really, really don’t see this as a problem with policy. In ATMB, you certainly CAN talk about the person who caused the problem – but you need to be polite and respectful, not hurtful and insulting.

Of course some moderators and administrators are too unthinking or have too much ego at stake to manage this.

[Zeke_N.Destroi]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

You’re deliberately twisting my analogy…

I did no such thing. Frankly I find it insulting that you have decided that I “deliberately [twisted your] analogy”. How dare you determine what my intentions were?

You mentioned your HR background and I brought up how the reaction to criticism is distinctly similar to my experiences with HR people. There was no twisting deliberate or otherwise. And, in fact, you didn’t make an analogy, I did.

Is it not a warnable offense to ascribe motivations to a poster? I’m sure I’ve seen people given shit for that. If I’m wrong then please accept my apology.

Either way I stand by what I said and I hope your back doesn’t bother you too much from the repeated twisting (contortion).

Zeke

[C_K_Dexter_Haven]

@Zeke_N.Destroi

I did no such thing. Frankly I find it insulting that you have decided that I “deliberately [twisted your] analogy”. How dare you determine what my intentions were?

You are correct, and I apologize for that statement. What I should have said was simply:

My analogy was how a smart employer/boss can be critical of an employee in a non-insulting, positive way. And my implication was that an intelligent poster can be critical of mods in a non-insulting way. If you don’t like that, how about the way an intelligent teacher can be critical of a student’s decision without insulting him or belittling him. Similarly, a reasonable poster can be critical of a mod’s decision without being insulting or belittling.

[MeanOldLady]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

The answer to both of these is the same. There’s nothing the mods (or anyone) can do with a general statement. We’re forced to specifics. (This is not limited to us mods, that’s true of the US court system, the police, and school teachers as well.) You can’t arrest someone for being “evil,” you can only get them for a specific violation.

Shodan: your example of “Poster X always gets away with stuff that others don’t” is a meaningless accusation. Give us a specific example, point to a specific post (or several posts), not a broad and poorly defined overview. In the recent instance, a specific example was cited and was deemed (by the moderator in the case) to be apples-to-oranges. One poster was reminded (not even Warned) for one thing, and Poster X was not reminded/warned for something completely different.

…

So, if you have specific accusations about moderator behavior (“You let X get away with this but warned me”) post it in ATMB. If you have general statements about a person (“She’s an all-purpose jerk over an extended period of time”) take it to the Pit.

I’m not sure how this answers the question. I’d still like to know how saying “Poster X’s actions aren’t moderated fairly” is an insult, rather than a discussion of moderation. You may say it’s too vague of a claim without specifics, sure, but how is that a personal insult?

I’m just asking for fun at this point, since this has been asked a bazillion times and has received everything but an answer.

[Shodan]

NM. There are only so many times one can beat one’s head against a stone wall, and once the mods start airing their dirty laundry against each other, a thread is over.

[Giraffe]

@C_K_Dexter_Haven

It had hit a point where I refused to read any mod criticisms of me in the Pit, because they were too annoying. Sorry, Giraffe, I know you loved the free-for-all days because you never had to do any moderating. Let’s face it, YOU were one of the reasons those days came to an abrupt end.

Dex, could you please explain what you meant by this?

[Astroboy14]

@Giraffe

Dex, could you please explain what you meant by this?

Yes, please. I was here then and the Pit was actually fun! (not that it can’t be now, but it’s def. different…) Of course, I was never foolish enough to try to be a mod, either.

[kayaker]

@GrandWino

Pretty strong accusation. Got a cite?

Find the 6 minutes of missing tape. Then you’ll have your answer.