A Q for Libertarian on Libertaria

I almost hesitate to say it but…

Build a new airport? I don’t think that is going to fly (!) economically.

Suppose that an airport needs 10 million credits per annum in order to succeed. Local business will generate potentially 13 million credits. Bigot Air Inc refuses black passengers, but still generates 12 million credits per annum since blacks are a minority in the area.

I build a new airport. I gain the 1 million credit support of the local black community. I still, however, need to attract 9 million of the remaining 12 million credit business in order to succeed.

Where is my guarantee that I can do this? I’m entering a hostile marketplace as the new kid in town. My competitor can afford to undercut me before I even start.

Basically, why would I choose such a nebulous capital investment when there are bound to be better projects for me to invest in?

This example is of course grossly simplified, but the complications actually make things even worse. For example, Bigot Air already have the best site for the airport. They already have the transport infrastructure. It just gets silly.

Have you ever studied the theory behind venture capital projects, Lib? From your solutions, I cannot believe so.

pan

Yes indeed, it does get silly.
[ul]
[li]This will happen in Libertaria but, mysteriously, doesn’t in America[/li][li]Bigot airport traffic goes only one-way — out[/li][li]Hi, Opal. Welcome to Libertaria![/li][li]There is no negative press or consumer pressure[/li][li]Bigot Airport gets the best land before anyone else[/li][li]There is no other land available[/li][li]Black people are too dull-witted to compete with bigots[/li][li]White people are lemmings who will use the bigot’s airport[/li][li]White people don’t care about black people[/li][li]There are no wealthy black people[/li][li]Venture capitalists clamor to invest in the Ku Klux Klan[/li][/ul]

Lib, there are a few basic facts you keep ignoring. Unless every single person enters Libertaria without one red cent, those that already have the mucho millions will not hesitate to snatch up all the land available, leaving unusable scraps for the rest of us. Without regulation the larger companies will gobble up the smaller(only by comparison) companies. Even if they don’t gobble up a smaller comapany, they can certainly dictate through coercion the smaller companies hirering practices, wage scales etc. Since property=rights in Libertaria, the rest of us who will be renting from the rich will have squat to say when it comes to where the roads will go.
No, lib, there will be no bribing of Senator Fatcat" in Libertaria. Since the purpose of bribing the Senator was to influence regulatory legislation or stop investigations into monopolistic habits, the Libertarian corporation can save a lot of moolah. Along the same lines, we can totally eliminate the influence organized crime has on the U.S. by making all of their practices legal!
The purpose of the corporation is to make money for the stockholders. One keeps her or his seat on the board of directors by making more money every year. Without federal, state and city regulations on business, this WILL go on unchecked.
And please don’t tell us about the “people” rising up to do the right thing. Remember, in Libertaria property=rights.

And guess who’s gonna end up owning all the property.

[QUOTE]
*Originally posted by Libertarian *
[li]This will happen in Libertaria but, mysteriously, doesn’t in America[/li][/quote]
It can’t happen in America. There are laws against it. This is actually the point being made.

[quote]
[li]Bigot airport traffic goes only one-way — out[/li][/quote]
Yes… again… the point.

[quote]
[li]Hi, Opal. Welcome to Libertaria![/li][/quote]
But only if you have enough money.

[quote]
[li]There is no negative press or consumer pressure[/li][/quote]
What does Mr Bigot care about this? He’s rich, he doesn’t need maximum profits per se, he just cares about keeping black people down.

[quote]
[li]Bigot Airport gets the best land before anyone else[/li][/quote]
Yes. We are assuming that the airport is pre-existing and Mr Bigot buys it. It therefore is already sited in the place deemed best to build an airport.

[quote]
[li]There is no other land available[/li][/quote]
This is actually odds with the previous point. There may be other land available, just not in a prime site. Other land may be too far away to be commercially viable. Mr Bigot or Mr Bigot’s chum may already own all potential sites and be unwilling to sell. There are plenty of potential problems.

[quote]
[li]Black people are too dull-witted to compete with bigots[/li][/quote]
Hurray for the straw man! How exactly is a black man subsiding on whatever pittance he can draw from Mr Bigot’s local economy going to get the resources to build a god damned AIRPORT? Dull-witted? Feh.

[quote]
[li]White people are lemmings who will use the bigot’s airport[/li][/quote]
As your poll thread is beginning to show, many people will simply use the cheapest option available. Or they will be willing to pay a little more but not significantly more. Especially if also inconvenienced. If the alternative airport is many mils away and costs more to boot, it is entirely reasonable to suppose that at least 25% of them stay using Bigot Air. And 25% is all I need to keep at Bigot to stop New Air being viable, remember?

[quote]
[li]White people don’t care about black people[/li][/quote]
People care mostly about themselves. People do care about others, but only to the extent that it is practical for them to do so. You can only usefully rail against the machine if there are checks and balances to appeal to.

[quote]
[li]There are no wealthy black people[/li][/quote]
They’ll have got wealthy by knowing good investment from bad. The airport is bad. Why should they invest in it? No doubt there are plenty of other injustices in Libertaria for them to invest their money in - why pick this one?

[quote]
[li]Venture capitalists clamor to invest in the Ku Klux Klan[/li][/quote]
Now you’re just being silly.

All these methods to try to redress a problem that doesn’t even exist in our present society! Simply make it illegal to discriminate in this way and the problem just goes away.

Fancy that.

Of course the black people could simply move, but then Mr Bigot would have won, no? I for one don’t like the idea of rich fuckers being able to turf people out of their homes just because they have some prejudice.

pan

Number of problems I have with a completely free market society: varies, depending on the political structure behind it. In Libertaria, for example, the handicapped(wheelchair-style) wouldn’t be able to “walk” on sidewalks. There simply aren’t enough people to provide economic incentive to building ramps…provided that non-ramp sidewalks are already in place. So long as we stick to new one-floor buildings, cities, and skyscrapers, then, even in Libertaria the handicapped will get along eventually in semi-limited areas.

The problem I have with this scenario is that handicapped-ness, if we may mangle English so, is a no-fault scenario. That is, it is easy to say, “Why should I be punished (forced to pay for renovation, etc) for them being handicapped?” Why should they, either, as it was as much their fault as yours? The ideal libertarian society would not account for things that weren’t matters of coercion and yet do indeed affect other people. (anecdotal reference: I came to this line of thought at an airport, of all places, when travelling up an escalator). However, in our society the majority gets “punished”, as it were, for the no-fault shortcomings of a minority (who also are punished, but since they are a minority less so) group. Since it was no one’s fault, no one should have to pay for it. Clearly, however, if we are to have any sense of equality then we shouldn’t be forcing someone to pay for something that isn’t their fault or responsibility…and yet there is no other way to compensate for this. Someone has to pay. Since it was no one’s fault, everyone should pay.

Natural disasters are, as well, another no fault damage which can render people helpless without some sort of societal intervention. “Don’t live on the coast if you don’t want the risk” is not acceptable since the coasts are HUGE sources of commerce and importing/exporting.

Flooding, earthquakes, tornadoes, et cetera…there are a large number of issues which a completely free market would improperly address, or not address at all.

The important thing to remember here, IMO, is that in any sort of “changed” society argument, many opponents feel that society should remain largely the way it(for example, we change games from chess to checkers but keep the pieces in the same place) is and can’t understand why their opponents insist on promoting things that obviously aren’t possible (ie-the privatization of roads). Folks, we’re talking about a new society here. That like saying, “What do you mean they didn’t have microwaves? How did they make their popcorn?!?!” and then being truly shocked when someone mentions that, indeed, popcorn may be made without a microwave.

I think a very slightly modified Libertaria, as presented here, would result in a very nice place to live, even though it comes with shortcomings and so on (what doesn’t?). I also feel that it addresses man best since it, honestly, doesn’t address him much at all; that is, man is not a static/robotic creature that may be cleverly manipulated given the appropriate society. I think history has demostrated that very well that, in the end, every oppresive regime meets trouble. As such, any society which automatically assumes things about man and his character and makes societal requirements of these men (gender neutral, of course) is doomed to failure of some sort by virtue of unconscious sabotage.

The fact that rights are an attribute of property is not indemic to libertarianism. Rather, it is a general definition that applies despite whatever context, including one in which the entity that owns everything has powers of involuntary taxation, eminent domain and asset forfeiture, nuclear weapons, and two-and-a-half trillion dollars. Whoever is the decision maker with respect to property is its owner. Here. There. And everywhere.

People who live in glass houses…

Czarcasm said:

What, exactly, prevents Bill Gates from buying all the land his billions can afford? Easy, self interest. He doesn’t need that much land. All that land would cost him money to maintain. He is a businessman; he is in the business of making money. As a result, he would not be likely to do something so foolish as buy up all the land in Libertaria, no more so than he is likely to buy up all the land in Washington.

Businesses get bought up all the time, right here in America. The government doesn’t step in until they are so huge that it really makes no difference anymore. What is protecting small stores when the local zoning board (a government entity BTW) allows WalMart to build a super-mega-store right next door?

Would businesses attempt to eliminate their competition in Libertaria? Yep, just like they do here, probably with as much success too. I think that some critics of libertarianism are being seriously disingenuous in their efforts to poke holes in the theory. Most of the hypothetical situations raised in this thread can be applied equally to almost any form of governance.

kabbes said

But it did happen in America, as I pointed out before, and there is nothing to stop it happening again, you are assuming that since there is a law against it, it (a) does not happen, and (b) will never happen again. I ask again, what prevents the law from being changed if the majority decide to change it?

As it happens, I have doubts about life in Libertaria, but social injustice is not one of them. My question for Libertarian is this:

In Libertaria, people provide services solely (ignoring altruism for the moment) in the hopes of generating a profit. However, it would seem that some services could not reasonably be expected to operate profitably at a price people were willing to pay. For example rural roads with few people living off of them, electricity and other utilities for small isolated communities are some things that I would think probably operate at a net loss to the provider. Here, companies are required by law (more scribbling) to provide service to everyone. As a result, prices for all users are slightly higher, subsidizing the excess costs to those isolated, sparsely populated or otherwise unprofitable areas.

It seems to me that in Libertaria, since there is no way to force a service provider to serve everyone, and sonce I as a consumer am going to search for the lowest price, that there is a powerful incentive to only provide service to areas which are profitable. I admit that people in those unprofitable areas could either provide their own services (solar panels, ham radio, dirt roads) or alternatively, move to other areas where these services can be provided at a profit, but the costs would likely be exorbitant. Would you expect such an outcome in Libertaria? If so, does it trouble you?

gEEk

My experience during Hurricane Hugo taught me that no one addresses such issues better than just plain caring people.

Geek:

Good question, and no, I don’t worry about it at all, despite that I am one of those who might likely be most in need of charitable hearts. Not every person — not even the majority of people — are Borg-like machines, without empathy for others. If they were, the Empathy Theory of Morality that Gaudere and other atheists champion would fall apart. There is no reason to believe that the same people who now demand that government provide social services for the poor and remote, and who proclaim how glad they are to pay their taxes for this purpose, would refuse to allow private charity to distribute those same funds. Unless they are hypocrites, of course, but let’s give them the benefit of the doubt.

Despite that people involuntarily give billions of dollars to government charities, they still don’t feel like that’s enough. According to Gallop, in a survey commissioned by The Independent Sector “More than 70% of households gave to charities in 1998.” That’s a huge majority of people.

Further findings by IS include:

[ul]
[li]56% of adults aged 18 or over volunteered a total of 19.9 billion hours[/li][li]An estimated 109 million people participated in volunteering in 1998[/li][li]I bet Opal has a charitable heart.[/li][li]90% of individuals volunteered when asked[/li][li]81% of households gave a donation when asked[/li]And contrary to the giant squid scenarios posited here
[li]As the level of income increased, more households reported making a contribution[/li][/ul]

People gave, on average, 2.2% of their income to charity, after government had already taken somewhere between 25% and 60% (depending on whom you ask) of what they’d earned.

I find the theory of Libertarianism interesting (inasmuch as I’ve only seen it expounded here) if not compelling, but there’s one issue I’m curious about: how is the sole law/principle of Libertaria (e.g. that it is illegal to impinge upon another’s rights in any form) decided? Is there a judicial body? Are there clear guidelines for what constitutes infringement? Would precedent have any standing? What standard of evidence is required to show that rights have been infringed? I fear that under this system (as under the current one) deep pockets would make all the difference. The other extreme, whereby any claim of infringed rights would automatically require the user to “cease and desist”, would avoid this problem, but create some obvious difficulties of its own. As an ancillary question, in a situation where the infringements of someone’s rights is inevitable, who decides, and how, the solution?

With only one rule/principle standing between order and anarchy, I can’t help but feel that the method of applying and enforcing it is more than a cosmetic issue.

I find the theory of Libertarianism interesting (inasmuch as I’ve only seen it expounded here) if not compelling, but there’s one issue I’m curious about: how is the sole law/principle of Libertaria (e.g. that it is illegal to impinge upon another’s rights in any form) decided? Is there a judicial body? Are there clear guidelines for what constitutes infringement? Would precedent have any standing? What standard of evidence is required to show that rights have been infringed? I fear that under this system (as under the current one) deep pockets would make all the difference. The other extreme, whereby any claim of infringed rights would automatically require the user to “cease and desist”, would avoid this problem, but create some obvious difficulties of its own. As an ancillary question, in a situation where the infringements of someone’s rights is inevitable, who decides, and how, the solution?

With only one rule/principle standing between order and anarchy, I can’t help but feel that the method of applying and enforcing it is more than a cosmetic issue.

What’s bothering me about this discussion, despite the fact I respect all the posters involved is that the discussion keeps doing this:

Poster 1: I like many libertarian ideas, but I’m concerned by this aspect of Libertaria. How could it be resolved within the bounds of Libertarinism?

Poster 2: It’s not likely to happen, but even if it does, the other system has the same flaw!

Everyone on both sides: The phrase “The other system has the same flaw” isn’t a convincing argumement. I’m trying to evaluate political philosophies/systems and weigh them. If the best one can say about how a system redresses a problem is “The other guy’s system has the same problem too!”, it doesn’t say much for either system.

Fenris

Evils associated to businesses are precicely the same evils that may be attributed to democratic government, and they have the same resource for stopping runaway power scenarios: the people.

Why o why can we the people manage government, where our say is little pieces of paper submitted on annual+ scales, and yet we cannot manage business where our say is little pieces of paper submitted in bulk daily all over the country?

One answer: we don’t manage government, it manages itself. Again, why can’t business do this? Does the government NOT have a vested interest in staying in power (much like a business has a vested interest in staying wealthy)?

I am often told that economic power and physical power are the same thing, and yet the government can miraculously do all the things it does with a monopoly on power. In the same vien, a business with a monopoply in some area of commerce should function similarly (say, on the level of state government). The only difference I see (if we equate economic and political power) is that governments may run at a deficit while business, largely, must make a profit.

I do not equte those two forms of power, however. Economic power, even without regulatory politics getting in the way, is not a guaranteed permanent state, regardless of behavior. I do not understand why everyone insists it is.

Fenris said:

Actually, I think it is a convincing argument. What it says is that this particular concern is not a useful criterion for ranking political systems

gEEk

Fenris:

With all due respect, if someone says, “Your stupid idea won’t work because it lacks the safeguards we now have,” then assailing their alleged safeguards is fair game.

Kabbes:

Bigotry is not illegal in the United States. There is nothing to stop a person from providing a private service, like an airport, to Whites only, except for the fact that the totality of your presumptions that I outlined are so ridiculous that they exist nowhere and make no economic sense.

AMRussell:

All of the questions you ask are decided by the people themselves. The legitimacy of government is derived from the consent of those who are governed. Libertaria is an abstract construct that I developed to address the giant squid scenarios. I can tell you my own preferences, such as arbitrational interpretation of noncoercion, but they might prejudice yours.

Libertarianism is not a political system like monarchy or democracy. Rather, it is a political philosophy like authoritarianism or liberalism. Any arbitrary political system is libertarian if all are volunteers. Therefore, if you prefer a system with millions of laws, your system can still be libertarian so long as all those laws are derived from the Noncoercion Principle.

Well, just plain caring people who live in a country that has FEMA

I’m glad you brought up disaster relief, Lib, so we can discuss how much this country learned from what happened in Galveston in 1900. Disaster relief takes not only the willingness and generosity of volunteers, but also an existing organizational infrastructure and coordination of efforts between relief groups. I say without a shred of sarcasm thank goodness for volunteer organizations such as the Salvation Army and the American Red Cross. It’s just that I consider the efficiency and great utility of these organizations in the US to be inextricably linked to government activism in disaster relief, and a credit to the American system of government.

Well said! But at least when those of us in opposition to strict libertarianism present flaws, we can show specifically and in detail, giving historical precedents, how those flaws are dealt with in a non-libertarian context. We can also list, in detail, how our flawed and imperfect system of governmental interference with peaceful honest people intends to take care of potential problems. And we can do so without referring to vague notions of unseen Legislative Forces®, since all such forces are subject to public review and debate. Our solutions involve very visible hands, and when we do cite legislative solutions we can authoritatively show the exact mechanisms by which such solutions are derived.

arl, sovereign power does not equal monopoly power. If we consider that the dividends delivered by a government are measured by the quality of life of their citizens, then we must allow that governments may not run for long at a “deficit.” In non-democratically operated countries, a steady downward trend in these dividends could easily end in a military coup or period of anarchy. Fortunately for Americans, we can usually change our government operators without bloodshed.

And, as I must point out in every libertarian thread, all legislative action is subject to review and change, and requires majority acceptance from legislators who are freely elected by a population that includes those peaceful honest folks and businesses so passionately defended by libertarians. (“Initiated force” is a red herring when applied to government regulation; it is a calumny, intended to portray protection of public interest as the tyrannical whim of the big bad gummint. Feh!)

Only if you can specify why those safeguards are not needed or irrelevant to your stupid idea. Otherwise, you’re saying the equivalent of “Yeah, but seatbelts aren’t 100% effective, so it doesn’t matter that my rocket sled provides no harness.”

Lib, it’s already been pointed out to you twice in this thread (by Czarcasm I believe) that a person cannot, in this country, restrict travel through their airport on the basis of color, creed, gender, etc., if they operate their airport as a public transportation business. Private airstrips are not businesses, and are not germaine to the original thought experiment.

That’s some catch, that Catch 22…

I didn’t bring up disaster relief; I responded to someone else who brought it up. It’s hard to say how effective FEMA is since, according to The Office of Inspector General, in 1997:

In a report called Rethinking Disaster Policy, Scott Harrington, Professor of Insurance and Finance at the prestigious Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina, explains why government disaster relief schemes drive up the cost and reduce the effectiveness of legitimate disaster relief agencies and disaster insurance.

Libertarian said:

I guess I am unconvinced that charity would be sufficient to provide electricity to the hundreds of thousands of individuals nationwide who live in areas which would be unprofitable to serve based on fees alone. The costs of running power lines, building generation plants, constructing roads, laying water lines, so far outweighs the ability of the people served to pay that I doubt any amount of charity could close the gap.

Actually I think I partially answered my own question. If we are building Libertaria from scratch, then this is not an issue. People will simply choose not to live in areas not served by utilities they deem necessary. If they decide to live there, then we can assume that they either have the wherewithal to provide for themselves or are willing to do without. If enough people decide to live there, then economies of scale will take over and fees will be less.

What I don’t know is how Libertaria would deal with this if it were formed from a previous advanced society, like America, where subsidies and universal service requirements have long been in place. It seems likely to me that utilities would simply stop serving unprofitable areas, leaving those affected to either provide for themselves, do without, or move.

I don’t think that charity would be sufficient to cover the gap, not because people aren’t generous, but because the costs are permanent and substantial. I also am not convinced that charity, which is dependent on economic factors that affect everyone, is a good way to provide vital services to a significant percentage of a society.

It seems that in this case, some form of regulated cost distribution is the most efficient way to provide for the needs of all. Ideally, this regulation results in a tightening of the range of fees paid for a given service. While some individuals are charged more for a service than they would otherwise, a corresponding group pays less, which allows the service to be provided universally at reasonable cost to all.

I suppose it is possible for a utility to ask its customers to approve a rate increase in order to cover the shortfall, but oviously only those customers who approve would be charged the higher rate. I don’t know, given that this is a hypothetical situation and I have no real numbers, how likely it is that such a plan would result in universal service to all at reasonable rates.

gEEk

Oh, lordy. We’re most definately building from scratch. As readers here can tell you, I’ve always maintained that to change America to a libertarian context, especially to do so suddenly, would result in a catastrophe like none seen in modern times. What I am arguing is a principle, the notion that peaceful honest people ought to be allowed to pursue their own happiness in their own way, and that no person ought to be able to abridge the rights of another. For whatever reason, that notion makes a lot of people squirm and have hissy fits.

According to the “rules” of provided above there has never been anything closer to a libertarian society than America in the last half of the last century. The vast majority of the people living here were doing so voluntarily (by way of immigration) and government had a much less invasive role in society (no welfare, little or no regulation of industry, no public health, etc).

Would you like to go back and live in 1880s America?

Companies knowingly made and sold defective products.

Workers were cheated out of their labor.

News was manufactured and events ignored that didn’t agree with the publishers world view.

Utilities were routinely denied those who lived in “inconvenient” areas.

Industries could and did own whole towns where their laborers had to live in order to earn money.

Transportation was owned and managed for the rich, by the rich and the poor could be denied service unless they could “account” for themselves.

People who were unable to compete do to illness or injury (often resulting from unsafe working conditions) died unless they could survive by begging.

None of these things would be prevented in any way in a modern Libertarian society.

If the only laws are profit and contract then anything unprofitable would be gone and only those things of benefit to the seller would be in the contract. (Want a car? Well here is a dandy without seatbelts. Sign here to take ownership and absolve me from all responsibility of producing a hazardous product.)

If once you maim a worker your only duty is to wheel him/her out of the way so they don’t get under foot of the rest of the workers then why run a safe factory? That is how factories ran before safety regs. You don’t believe me read the eyewitness accounts.

Sure there were and always will be some people who help the less fortunate. There were and always will be more who find ways to exploit the unfortunate to their own ends. The only thing protecting us from the latter are a system of laws that protect the weak from the powerful. This is true whether the powerful be a government agency or a multinational corporation.

Yes, the government has been given powers to act in the public interest which may be contrary to the private interest of a few. But neither the government nor industry is permitted to maim or kill or starve individuals. Under Libertarianism anyone with enough money has the right to maim, kill or starve anyone they like as long as there is no existing contract to the contrary and said excesses do not eat into the bottom line.