A quarter of all teenaged girls have an STD

They do. Is it okay if we tell them what those consequences are, but maybe don’t make it sound like we’re a bunch of self righteous judgmental pricks in the process? I’ve noticed that tends to cause most teenagers to disengage and ignore the information. I’m sure your experience is quite different, but I think I’ll just continue to try to connect with them by treating them like people, not five year olds who need to be lectured.

Do you know that, then? That’s interesting. Because unless “the very basic things they need to know” consists of “don’t do it,” then you’re full of shit. Because Title V quite clearly states schools will teach abstinence only or they don’t get federal funding for the classes.

Then you’re not looking at all the data. Are you?

Thank you for proving it.

Well… maybe this is called natural selection. I guess that’s what Martin Hyde is trying to invoke.

I’d say that those who think abstinence only are trying to weed themselves out but it doesn’t work that way…

I suppose they’re just keeping themselves poor?

What is the argument anyhow?

Grab hold to anything that seems to prove that abstinence only is or could work?

Oh for shit’s sake, there is literally NO END to the things for which “the basics can be taught in an hour.” You know, things like punctuation and long division and fractions and how to drive a car. Yet for some mysterious reason our educational system spends WAY more than an hour on these subjects and yet even after twelve YEARS of mandatory education many people still find themselves unclear on the basic concepts. Is it just because people are “stupid?” Well, that’s such a nice easy little answer, isn’t it? Gets everyone off the hook and absolved of all responsibility, right? Get real.

Sex ed as currently taught is pretty much tailor made to ensure the kids pay zero attention. It’s a “special subject” that’s not part of regular curriculum, they get pulled out of regular classes to attend and if it’s anything like it was in my or my kids’ day it’s sexually segregated as well. No effort is made to place sexual health into any sort of reasonable framework that relates to kid’s lives. We teach math by tying the problems into real world scenarios, we take kids on the road to teach them to drive in a real world setting and we tie language and writing skills to the real world as well. On the other hand we present sexuality and sexual health as a borderline taboo topic that has no relation to the real world. It’s “embarrassing” and we make sure the kids are damned good and embarrassed when we teach them–the overall message is “don’t ask so many questions–just don’t do it, just DON’T!” That does NOT work well in real life.

Instead we should be requiring age appropriate sex ed as a regular part of the curriculum beginning probably in sixth grade and continuing through high school. We should be teaching the kids how to deal with pressure, with boundaries, with self esteem issues, with putting sex into its proper context within a well lived life. We should be encouraging the kids to open the dialog between boys and girls–teaching them to listen to each other and to realize that sexuality is different for boys and girls and that consequences are different as well, but that responsibility is for everybody. We need to address the feelings girls have that result in trophy pregnancies, we need to give boys and girls some very pointed and specific instruction regarding the care and feeding of babies (along with tying in those math lessons to reinforce how damned expensive they are!) and we need to go over all the permutations of methods of birth control and how to decide on the right combination of methods that suit each individual. We need to be very upfront about STI’s and their risks and methods of prevention. We need to start early with social engineering that makes kids reinforce to EACH OTHER that lack of sexual responsibility leads directly to a lack of sex–if kids refused to fuck the irresponsible and clueless and instead did their experimenting only with those who paid attention in class we’d see a sharp rise in attention to sex ed!

We’re giving less time and attention to a subject which is potentially a life or death matter than we do to proper spelling and punctuation–which is probably not ever going to kill you if you don’t learn it right. It’s disgusting how ill-informed we’re allowing our kids to grow up and in any sane society it wouldn’t be allowed. There are all kinds of requirements for kids to get driver’s licenses but nothing to prepare them for sexual health. Appalling, just appalling.

The thread is about lots of teenage girls getting STD’s. If you want to address a problem, step one is diagnosing that problem correctly. As adults we can speculate on what causes it, or we can see if any research has been done. I cited this because Wikipedia listed it at number 1. Maybe I missed it but nobody seemed to have mentioned this until I posted it.

Hand out all the condoms you want, and they’ll help some, but they won’t address this issue. As is often true, there’s not one cause and therefore no one-faceted solution as a complete fix. Expecting to bring major improvement the situation while overlooking this major cause seems pretty naïve, however.

And while Seventeen may not be the gold standard of research, it’s interesting to note that these are teenagers responding, not experts pontificating about what they think is going on. Doctors ask the patient what’s wrong, not some third party. “And these children that you spit on as you try to change their world/Are immune to their consultations, they’re quite aware of what they’re going through.” (David Bowie/Changes).

I was really looking for a figure as to how many teens get pregnant intentionally. You know THEY won’t be wearing a condom. I had a psych class some time ago that mentioned in some inner cities schools, girls have babies as a badge of honor, feeling that’s what makes them “women.” IIRC there most certainly was peer pressure in that case, with girls ostracizing other girls who didn’t have kids.

The one hoping to get laid usually is a peer. And if a boyfriend dumps a girl for one who puts out, then there’s pressure to be like the other girls or repeatedly lose the guy. It may not be taunting or anything so direct but the effect is the same. In any event, the term “peer pressure” wasn’t mine—it’s Wikipedia’s, possibly taking it directly from studies, such as in this quote from the same article:

A 2003 Kaiser Family Foundation poll found that one in three young men aged 15-17 said they had felt pressure from male friends to have sex.

Just to give you a glimpse at a resource our school uses as sex-ed:

It’s the Notori-STDZ!

While the photo quality is horrible, you can get the picture of how laughable the scare tactics are. The public high school I'm enrolled requires a half-year long health class that teaches the basics of sex along with drugs, exercise, and healthy eating- the sex curriculum circles around the physical parts of the body, pregnancy, and STIs. 

Condoms and birth control are very briefly mentioned , but to learn about any methods of prevention, a student must take an optional class called human sexuality.

The report I heard on NPR indicated that a large portion of the teenage girls were not having sex with teenage boys-- they were being “initiated” into sex by older men. I think this is why teenage girls are more likely to have an STI than their male peers. One would assume that these men are past the age where they can learn about disease prevention in school, which is why the girls are targeted in these education campaigns.

Every time something like this crops up, people come out of the woodwork to decry abstinence only education. But does anyone actually have some cites that show what percentage of US public schools actually offer this as their health curriculum?

I think a lot of people are deluding themselves if they think all the blame lays there. My high school had a great health class. We learned about all the sexually contracted diseases, and about every conceivable form of birth control and how you use them. In fact, Health was one of the classes you had to pass, or you couldn’t graduate. (I know two kids who didn’t graduate solely because of that class) There were all of 75 kids in my graduating class, gender split about 50-50.

We all took health in 10th grade when we were about 15/16. When we were 17/18 senior year four of the girls* had new babies - every one of those babies born at least a year after we took that class. That’s about 4 out of 37 girls. God only knows who had an abortion or who got an STD besides.

You can teach teens all you want, it doesn’t mean that they actually listen or use the information painstakingly taught to them.

  • Happily, every one of those girls graduated on time too, if you were wondering.

I’m so glad you asked. Yes. Last year, in fact.

Then it’s entirely possible you live in one of the states that refuses to accept Title V funding and is able to teach something other than abstinence only.

So, by that rationale, we shouldn’t bother to teach them anything. It’s just a crap shoot anyway, right?

ETA: Sorry, I thought you were requesting a cite for proof that abstinence only doesn’t work. All schools who wish Title V funding MUST use abstinence only education.

You just basically describe the average “stupid person” I’m talking about. I’ve never been the type of person to take bold factual claims made by friends at face value. I had friends tell me years ago that sucking on pennies would allow you to “fool” a breathalyzer. I didn’t believe or disbelieve it at the time, I just thought “that’s something I’d have to see some solid evidence on.” Ends up that’s totally false.

Obviously. However there’s not a very good way for someone to ascertain whether or not a woman he’s just met in a bar is ovulating.

You can do whatever you want, it’s my opinion that most people aren’t going to change their behaviors no matter how much they are “educated.” That may sound harsh, and maybe it is–I’m not saying sex ed serves no purpose. But I believe that someone who really doesn’t want to use a condom isn’t going to be swayed by it. We learned a lot about all the negatives of smoking in school even in my day, and my school still had an extremely high % of smokers in it.

What your saying is factually incorrect. In fact I think you might be an idiot if you really believe this. Title V offers special grants for teaching abstinence-only. However these are special grants, not a part of the regular Federal funding that all school districts receive. Refusing to teach abstinence only does not = losing all of your Federal school money.

This is like the old canard that not putting your state drinking age at 21 = losing all Federal transportation funding. People only say that because they are ignorant of the legislation (not setting your drinking age at 21 or older actually costs a state 10% of their Federal highway apportionment.)

Furthermore Title V received something like $50m in total Federal funding in 2007, to do you have any idea how small a number that is?

No, I’m only looking at the data which isn’t completely incorrect and retarded. Apparently you not only fail to filter that data out, you embrace it with your stupidity.

Holy. Crap. Every single one of your posts has been anecdotal evidence. So, basically…the only thing that really is relevant, as far as Martin Hyde is concerned, is what Martin Hyde personally has observed. Okay. I’m going to go back to ignoring what you say, because despite your pronouncements about the REST of the world’s stupidity, you seem to have overlooked the fact that you have cornered the market on stupid.

And incidentally:

The federal government spends a LOT of money telling teenagers “don’t have sex.” And you’re right. $50M isn’t a lot of money when you’re talking, say, defense spending. Schools, for some reason, get shafted, and $50M is a lot.
.

I’m not dim, but I can’t say I entered adult life with everything I needed to know. My parents had a few taboos and the school sure wasn’t teaching it either.

Nothing more than an abstract. I mean… sure tell us all to use condoms… good idea. And sure, their use isn’t hard to figure out. Even so a demo AND a warning not to use latex with oil based goods… that would HELP. Anything I just suggested… did. not. happen.

We were supposed to figure that out ourselves…

I share your skepticism on urban legends… even so, knowing that a rumor is likely false, doesn’t mean you know why - or what information should take it’s place… y’know?

Nope, I’m in not in favor of abstinence only programs. I was just pointing out that sex ed that isn’t restricted to “don’t do it!” doesn’t work so great either, so it’s not realistic to believe all the problems will be solved if we fully convert to proper sex-ed education everywhere. Some people do truly seem to think it’d be the magical solution, but significant numbers of kids will still do whatever the hell they want.

Maybe if we brought back the chastity belt…

Our local high school requires all freshman students to take a “health” class for one quarter of the year. They take the time from the PE classes. All three of my kids have had the class, so I have a pretty good idea what’s in it. I also know the teacher. They do cover the general things that health classes usually do, like fitness and nutrition and such, but they also spend a significant amount of time teaching about the various forms of birth control, and about safer sex and all those related topics. In fact, that’s pretty much what the class is known for. They do exactly what’s been advocated here, “Don’t do it now, but if you’re going to anyway, here’s what you need to know”.

It hasn’t had any significant effect on the number of pregnancies in the school, nor has it had, apparently, any significant effect on the number of kids who are sexually active. Yes, this is anecdotal, and no, I don’t have hard numbers, but I do have the experience of three kids who attended that school over 8 years. I don’t know anything about the rate of STDs. Nobody really talks about those when they have them.

I think we need to keep educating kids, but I don’t think that’s going to make that much difference. Not in the culture we live in. They get too many other messages from too many other sources. They are getting a whole other education from movies, TV, and music.

Taking aside stuff that shows up more often in females, do you have a cite that more teen girls will have an STD than males? :confused:

Note my earlier post.

I’ve been teaching in public schools for about 20 years now. I have no kids of my own but I’ve worked with hundreds of them.

Overall, I have to say that parents sure don’t raise their children the way mine raised me and the status quo seems to slide backward a little more every year.

My parents were married 60+ years, right up until my father’s death. The divorce rate these days is no secret. Sure, kids are going to be disillusioned and have a host of issues about the breakup of a marriage. Above and beyond that, divorce means a single parent (usually the mother) is trying to raise the child alone. She may be working overtime or two jobs to make ends meet—how many “latch key kids” do we have now? If a parent isn’t there, how can they transmit norms and values? Kids have to be told over and over and over before the message gets through, and a lot of parents simply aren’t there to do it.

That assumes that the parent knows what to tell the kid in the first place, i.e. that the parent completed childhood with sufficient guidance and support and can now transmit what they learned to their own kids. Quoting from a NY Times religion column:
It is a well-known, little-mentioned fact that children who have children tend to be those who were themselves products of teen-age parents.

Children raising children…raising children. Isn’t the effect on parenting skills becoming like a bad photocopy of a bad photocopy? Sure, back in the day people like my folks got married in their teens. However, that was the norm and it was more like the Waltons on TV, where they had help from the extended family and moms stayed home…hard for the kids to get much past her. They had to behave and contribute to the family for survival. Then as a society post-WWII we hit on some prosperity, and we started giving kids more and more while expecting less and less from them. Enter the sexual revolution, women going out to work, the “me” generation and the slide has been continuous ever since.

Go to your local high school and compare the cars in the student parking lot to those in the teacher parking lot. Shit, I graduated HS and college…I have a B.A. with honors, and all I got for graduation was a VCR! How is it that these kids have cars nicer than mine when they haven’t finished anything yet?

I have seen this phenomenon—parents buying their child’s love—in various forms. The parents work work work and aren’t there, so they throw money at the issue. I hate to quote Jesse Jackson but: “Children need your presence more than your presents.”

I saw something similar even in some poor families. In one school, if I needed to contact a parent, I found that a surprising number of them had no telephone. You might guess that these students had shabby, threadbare clothes, but it was just the opposite: they wore Tommy Hilfiger and the like. A fellow teacher told me, “Their parents don’t want anybody to know they’re poor so they buy them nice clothes to create the illusion. But then there’s no money left for a phone.” I wonder what the plan is when they need to call a fire truck or ambulance.

Throw into the mix the cultural differences—inner city, welfare system, ethnic group norms. Add that some children have been sexually abused and acting out. And some girls think they can “trap” a boyfriend who’s threatening to leave or simply hoping a baby is her ticket out of her parents’ home. Some think a child will provide unconditional love (which they didn’t get from their parents) and be a sort of human pet. They bring the babies to school like trophies. They’re not thinking long-term: the father is primarily a sperm donor and they plan to find someone they actually want to marry later.

And it’s a huge understatement to say that pop culture contributes. Movies lead a naive person to believe that you see each other across a crowded room, fall in love, and it all works out without any arguments, compromises, etc. Censorship on TV…not like I remember it. Kids listen to gangsta rap and such, posture like hoods and girls dress like whores.

If all parents were on the ball, there would be no gangs: these are unparented/underparented kids with nothing to do looking for other kids to lead them and teach them, for a place to belong, etc. The single most important thing to adolescents is peer approval—that’s just baked into the deal and always has been—but parents aren’t stopping them from emulating some very questionable role models.

We’ve become so mobile that we don’t live anywhere near an extended family, we don’t even have two parents on the job in the first place, church attendance ain’t what it used to be, networks will air anything for the almighty buck, the internet is a free-for-all (MySpace, anyone?), and families aren’t coping well with all this.

I’d like to know about raves. How do kids get away with staying out all night at parties? Do the parents not know or not care? Throw in booze, drugs like Ecstasy (or rohypnol) and the rave is just a recipe for disaster. In another thread people were asking when Hooter’s because a family restaurant: exactly. The line between adult and child has blurred terribly. I get a lot of students who think I’m their peer because they’ve never been taught basic respect for authority. Parents want to be the “friend” of the child.

Sex ed isn’t the solution, nor is handing out condoms…we can do those things, and they will help. But if you really want to fix the problem, fix the nuclear family.

Is there any indication from this study that the STD infection rate is higher among young women who received abstinence-only education than among those who didn’t?

The Mathmatica study I quoted earlier states:

Even worse, none of them got it from me! :mad:

Where do I volunteer to be one of the older men ‘breaking in’ teenage girls?

I promise to abide by Dan Savage’s campsite rule :slight_smile:

Yes, it is rather warm here in Hell. Why do you ask?