No, it can not. Even if the player crosses the plate before the pitch, the steal is negated on the third strike.
Others – as far as a fielder tagging a runner instead of touching the bag, it’s still a force. Exampel – runner on 1st, batter hits grounder to second baseman, who tags runner going from first to third. That runner is in a force situation. It’s a force whether he is tagged or the force.
I am willing to concede this point if presented with a rule.
I agree a runner on the way to second will be a “force out” if tagged rather than the ball arriving at the base before the runner.
But if he passes 2nd and heads to third before being tagged out, that is not a force out, just an ordinary put out, no? He proceeded past 2nd at his own peril, he was not forced.
My latest rulebook is probably at least five years old, so I don’t have a citation handy. How could a run score when the batter gets out for the final out (without even becoming a batter-runner?) If a fast runner on first base gets a big lead and a great jump and reaches second base on a steal attempt before the batter strikes out, he is not credited with a stolen base. The runner’s action is ignored, because the batter struckout for the third out.
That is correct. Once the runner reached the base he was forced to, if he advances beyond that base he must be tagged out to be put out.
Probably this rule has not changed in 5 years, if you can give the rule runner we can google it. Even if it has changed, then we have the up to date version.
I’d say that one way to answer your question is if the steal takes place and the run scores before the pitch is thrown. Isn’t the ball in play from the time the pitcher steps on the rubber? If he dozes off and is slow to pitch …if he scores before the pitcher even begins his windup, but then the pitcher pitches anyway and then there is a strikeout, why wouldn’t the run score?
Maybe I can see your case if the pitcher has begin his windup or released the ball, or some other event has happened before he crosses the plate, but if he is just standing on the rubber? How is that anything other than an uncontested steal even if the subsequent pitch leads to an out?
For that matter, on a steal for home, is any throw from th4e pitcher towards the plate a pitch? Must it be called a ball or strike? Must the catcher stay behind the plate or risk an interference call? Must the batter stay in the batter’s box? What if the pitcher breaks contact with the rubber?
Another is the pitch is strike 3, but wild and the batter safely advances to first (as famously happened in the 1941 World Series I think). Not sure if that makes the batter a "batter-runner or not) it might, but it is irrelevant - the number of outs increases, possibly to 3, and the run counts, and the team is still at bat.
Because the ball is still live. The ball didn’t become dead until the pitcher delivered the third strike. Since the batter struckout for the third out, the action of the runner is irrelevant.
Your other questions –
If he steps off the rubber to throw, it’s a throw and not a pitch. If he doesn’t step off, it’s a pitch to the batter. Unusual to see a pitcher step off though if he’s in his windup. If his windup has begun, he’s likely to continue with the pitch – too easy to balk.
If it’s a pitch, yes. If the pitcher stepped off, no.
3. Must the catcher stay behind the plate or risk an interference call?
Catcher can’t receive the ball out in front of the plate or it’s obstruction (the misnamed ‘catcher’s balk’)
4. Must the batter stay in the batter’s box?
Batter can leave the box as long as he doesn’t interfere.
5. What if the pitcher breaks contact with the rubber?
Depends. If he properly steps off then throws, it’s a throw to the plate (not a pitch to the batter.) If he doesn’t step off properly, it’s a balk.
6. Another is the pitch is strike 3, but wild and the batter safely advances to first (as famously happened in the 1941 World Series I think). Not sure if that makes the batter a "batter-runner or not) it might, but it is irrelevant - the number of outs increases, possibly to 3, and the run counts, and the team is still at bat.
On such a pitch, the batter becomes a batter-runner. He has struckout, but a wild pitch / passed ball allows him to try for first base (as happened with the Yankees’ Tommy Henrich in the 1941 WS when the ball eluded catcher Mickey Owen.) The number of outs does not increase. The batter gets a strikeout, but it’s not an out. There is no limit to the number of strikeouts in an inning.
[quote=“Obeseus, post:45, topic:493643”]
Because the ball is still live. The ball didn’t become dead until the pitcher delivered the third strike. Since the batter struckout for the third out, the action of the runner is irrelevant.
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Like I said, show me the rule and I will concede the point.
I have seen even pros get flustered though and do either. It is a high risk situation for balks, that’s for sure!
If it is a pitch but not a throw, right? (never heard the term :“catcher’s balk” before but I know what you mean)
On a non-pitch only, right?
OK, but then the out is not recorded when the ball crosses the plate in the strike zone or the batter swings and misses for strike 3, but rather when catcher cleanly catches the ball or a play is made at first failing that. Not saying it isn’t so, but I’d like to see the rule that says that the run can’t score before teh out is recorded at first in such a case. Such a rule would be subservient to any ground rules, maybe the wild pitch bounced into the stand. Strike 3 has happened, but batter-runner and runner on third will both advance without liability.
Or maybe strike 3 happens but catcher interferes while runner scores. What then?
I’ll echo the call for a cite from the rulebook (just google “Baseball rules” for the most up to date version.) Your scenario just doesn’t make any sense on the face of it. If the runner crosses the plate BEFORE THE THIRD STRIKE, which is what you claimed in then the ball is live when that run in scored, and the third strike would take place after the run had scored. The ball is alive when the run scores, and becomes dead afterwards. It is not in any way different than if the runner had stolen home on the previous pitch.
But again… if you can please point to the rule, I’ll stand corrected.
You may be confused by Rule 6.05(n), whgich states that in this scenario, the run does not count with two out **if the ball touched the stealing runner in the strike zone. ** The purpose of this rule is to penalize the batting team for a form of interference. It is not applied, anywhere in the rulebook that I can see, for a normal third strike.
The most famous instance of this occurred in 1959, when Pittsburgh’s Harvey Haddix pitched twelve perfect innings, only to lose the game in the thirteenth. After the Milwaukee Braves’ Felix Mantilla reached on an error and was sacrificed to second, Hank Aaron was walked intentionally. Joe Adcock then “went yard”, but passed Aaron on the basepaths. Mantilla’s crossing of the plate counted, though, making the final score 1-0.
Although you probably weren’t on hand (as this happened at an Indians home game), I recall this scenario unfolding back when I worked as a vendor at the old Cleveland Stadium. All the records counted, the game went into the books as a tie, and I had to report early the next day for a doubleheader. I believe that the current rule provides for suspension of the game, however, and a resumption at the point of interruption on the first available date.
I think the rule changed since then though, now a walk off homer scores all runs on base, but any other base hit only scores one. Under the curent rules, that game would have been 3-0, not 1-0.
Oh another ex-vendor! That is how (in part) I went to so many games at Memorial Stadium. I have heard working as a vendor in Cleveland was horrible because of the old stadium facilities and the small crowds - true?
If a runner steals home before a the 3rd strike to end the inning, the run does not count.
Rule 4.09 a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first base.
The runner is not credited with stealing any base, including home on a third strike to end the inning. EXCEPTION, a dropped 3rd strike.
I’d say that depends on when the batter becomes a batter-runner, to be fair.
For a guy who struck out, it is hard to see him as a batter-runner except on a dropped third strike, or possibly a bunt foul before the ball touches foul territory. Before that, don’t the rules refer to him as a batter, not a batter-runner?
Actually, the bunt is an interesting case in itself.
Say, 2 outs, 2 strikes, suicide squeeze. Batter bunts a popup heading foul. Before it lands, runner crosses home. By virtue of his batting stance, batter is out when the ball lands, but is he ever a batter-runner? If not, then it may be interpret the rule above counter intuitively that the runner scores. But if so, what is the point? he has no reason to go towards first except according to this rule, he need merely touch it, not touch it safely. If he gets there before the ball lands foul (could happen on a great drag bunt with a speedy left handed batter and the defense decides to see if the ball will roll foul and it (the ball) is slow in doing so), he will have already touched first, the run will have crossed the plate, all before the out is recorded.
I see. So even when someone cites the rule, you still don’t accept it.
In your example, this is a strikeout. The inning is over as soon as the ball comes to rest or is touched by a fielder in foul ground. Wherever the batters and any runners ran is meaningless.
If the batter bunts a 2-out, 2-strike, slow roller along the line that doesn’t go foul until just before a base, the batter has struckout, and the inning has ended as soon as the ball stops in foul ground or is touched by a fielder in foul ground. If a runner on second touched the plate prior to the ball becoming foul, it doesn’t matter. Inning is over. Action of any runners is negated.
No, it would be 1-0, because batter-runner Adcock passed Aaron and thus was declared out. Had Adcock stayed behind Hank all the way around the bags, the score would have been 3-0 then, as it would be now.
True. While the size of the stadium allowed even an average vendor to make decent money during Browns games, or on such baseball occasions as Opening Day and Yankees visits, there was a three-game series with the Brewers during which I cleared less money than I paid in bus fare ($1 each way, thus $6 total) to and from the park. We worked on a straight commission basis.
I googled that section of the rules, your quote did not cover the entire section, so that makes it suspect.
Before this thread, I never heard the term “batter-runner” before, so it must mean something other than “batter”. What it means would be in the rules somewhere. You might be right, but like I said, itt depends on what “batter-runner” means and that is not clear to me.
I am inclined to think so too of course, but it is not clear from the rule as you cited it. I gave a counter example. You are free to persuade me, but simply asserting you are right and the rule is clear is unlikely to be persuasive. I think you most likely are right, but to know for sure, we need to find the rules that apply. the rule as cited says “batter-runner touches first base”, “not batter-runner reaches first base safely”. Unless there is another good explanation in the rules, this seems problematic to me, and after 150 years of rule development and refinement, it seems unlikely to be an oversight. I know how common sense interprets the situation, but what do the rules actually say?
Here is a link to the definition of batter and batter-runner. As suspected they are not the same thing:
Lets consider the case of a steal of home on strike three.
Ignore the runner for a moment.
Batter strikes out looking, catcher catches ball cleanly.
Batter is put out when the catcher handles the ball.
Batter is never a batter-runner.
Now consider the runner on third, breaking for home jsut as pitcher uncorks an eephus pitch.
Runner makes it home easily before the pitch arrives
Pitch drops through the strike zone for called strike three, catcher handles it fine.
Here is rule 4.09a from “how a team scores”:
Exception (1) does not apply because batter never became a batter-runner. (2) and (3) clearly don’t apply.
Run scores, IMHO, because runner crossed plate legally before the put out, batter is never a batter-runner and so the body of 4.09(a) applies without triggering any exceptions.
Similarly if batter swings and misses after the runner arrives and the runner is not hit by the pitch in the strike zone.
I know it is counter-intuitive, I can hardly believe it myself.
You’re probably correct, but the MLB online rules book worded the way I wrote it.
Hey, another former beer vendor here! I was a beer vendor for the Texas Rangers for a number of years. I also managed a vending commissary too. Good Times.
It allowed me a lot of opportunities to watch Nolan Ryan and Charlie Hough pitch. Probably my two favorite ball players.
I’ll concede the rule might not be worded the best. However, on the plays you described (a 2-out, 2-strike foul bunt & swinging strike while runner steals home) aren’t dependant on when the batter touches first base. He is out on the third strike and is not entititled to attempt to reach first base, so touching it is a non-issue.
It’s really no different than if the batter hits a fly ball to centerfield, and two runners cross the plate before the ball is caught (before the batter-runner is actually called out.) The runs do not count, and it makes no difference whether the batter touched first base before the ball was caught.
:smack: two days in a row I missed a key work on waking up.
I think I saw earlier in the rules that if Adcock had missed first before passing Aaron, then the home run would have been negated as the run would not have counted - the batter has to at least touch first unless the crowd prevents it (and similarly for the runner crossing the plate).
Not sure what that would do to the stats!
When was that? I was an O’s vendor early 80s. I sold beer and soda (usually soda on Sundays, more of a family crowd) in the stands.
We sold on pure commission too, rates went up as we hit certain thresholds. Attendance in 1980 was about 1.8 mill I think ( a record for the O’s at the time), and I could usually walk away with about 30 bucks and tips to go spend on a fast food dinner. I still have the badges we wore to show the price - $1.25 for beer, poured from the can for you, and .85 for an “ice cold” coke.
We carried as many cases of beer as we could - being a small guy, I could only handle one, bigger guys could carry two and even three, meaning less trips back to the commissary to waste time. I was envious and tried it once, but coudn’t do it. Guys with big hands could pour two at a time, but not me. I think those guys were making easily $100/game, some even worked in Philly too.
I think I averages about 10-14 cases a game, from batting practice until the final out. Yes, the final out fans. If you were discreet enough, you might get one on the way out of the stadium too, as it meant less hassle in the commissary checking out if I could come back empty. Strictly verboten and highly illegal with cops around, so those beers cost extra 
Soda, probably averaged 20 messy metal racks of 20 cellophane covered 20 ouncers a game. Didn’t have to pour them but carrying the rack was a pain. And in hot weather, the last few could be tough to move because everyone knew the ice was melted, and some other dude would be right along with a fresh rack.
We were
Nonetheless, the best sale ever was soda. One day in the middle of a game like any other, along the first base side in the lower deck along the foul line in the outfield, just under the overhang a guy waves me over. I ask him how many. Usually the answer would be from 1 to 4.
Turns out this guy has his entire little league with him and all their parents.
How many indeed.
600 please.
Uhh…quick thinking…this is gonna take me several innings… hec ould by in batches from anyone …uhhh
“Happy to sir. I can only carry 20 a time as you can see, so please pay in advance for best service and least confusion”
“Sure, how much is it?”
Mentally adding two decimal places to my memorized amount for 6 (hey I was a math major!)
“that’ll be five hundred and ten dollars plus tip”
He peeled off 600 dollars, and I was on my way.
Racing back to the commissary, where the custom was to shout out what you need so the workers could get it while you got your inventory card stamped and cashed out in the cashier cage so you could go again, the air was usually full of “I need 1 peanut” “2 cases Bud” “1 soda”.
Time still stands still for me thinking about racing there and saying words probably never heard before or since by my peers - “I need 30 racks of coke!”
“Yes, 30!”
Mentally the other coke guys and gals were trying to figure out where s they could go poach.
“I just sold 600 already paid for so forget it”
It did take several innings to finish the task, and I was wasted physically that night from the running with that full rack back and forth back and forth, but I am pretty sure that day was the only time I ever came close to the 18% commission threshold. I
Probably made 60 dollars that day in commissions and a lot more in that one tip.
Anyway, I occasionally would meet other vendors or ex vendors in the stands from elsewhere so I was surprised to learn other places had other systems, some were even unionized I think. What was it like in Cleveland?
I drool now thinking how great it would be to make 15 % on 8 dollar beers instead of 30 dollar cases. Alas they don’t sell in the stands any more I think, and not at all past the 7th inning or some such artificial time.
Upon further review, I concede this one - the batter does become a batter runner, and 4.09 (a) exception (1) is triggered.