Here’s the scenario: Men on second and third, one out. The pitcher starts the wind-up and the third base coach sends the runners. (You are not allowed to ask, as my brother did, why would they send the runners from second and third with one out if they weren’t attempting a squeeze–they just did, OK?) The ball is grounded sharply to third, where the third baseman fields it. In this order:[ul][li] The third baseman tags out the runner coming into third.[/li][li] The runner who had been on third crosses home.[/li][li] The third baseman throws the ball to first, where he gets the runner out in time, a force out.[/ul]My question: Does the run count? Would the answer change if the runner crossed home before either out occurred?[/li]
We discussed this at length yesterday evening and could not come to a consensus. Everyone agreed that had both outs been a force, the run wouldn’t count (duh!). Several beers added no clarity at all.
Nope, I know that’s not necessarily true. First and third, one out. Ball is hit to first where the first baseman fields it, tags the bag and throws to second (no force), where the runner is tagged out. If the man who had been on third crossed home before the out at second, the run counts, despite the fact that the runner was out at first.
You are in agreement with my youngest brother. I, on the other hand, think in both instances the run does not count. However, I can support this with nothing other than my strong feeling that my younger brother cannot be right while I am wrong. He obstinately refuses to accept this eminently reasonable position.
The principle I believe is a run does not count if it immediately preceeded a force out ending the inning–where the batter must reach first considered a force out.
**As I noted, this isn’t necessarily true. And even when the batter is put out to end the inning, the inning was still alive when the runner crossed home. That, by itself, won’t make the run stand, right? I thought the distinction was whether or not the third out was a force (on the same play where the run would otherwise have scored, and wheterh or not the force is on the batter). My brother thinks it depends on the out that immediately follows the “run”–if it’s a force, no run, if it is not, then the run stands.
I believe that if my brother is right, the rules should be immediately amended to match my more logical position.
In this particular case, the batter turned runner does not have to make it to first base for a run to count; all the runner has to do is make it across home before the third out.
Keep in mind that a forced out concerns a scenario where the runner on base has to give up his position due to the batter turning into a runner. So, for example, if we have a man on first base and a batter who just hit the ball (assuming, once again, this is not a pop fly situation), the defending team would force an out by throwing the ball to second base (because the man previously on first had to move to make room for the batter) before the player tags it. That would be a forced out. In the OP’s scenario, none of the players (other than the batter) had to actually move; the men on second and third bases could have stayed there without harm from anyone other than their coaches, fans and team owners.
Even if the batter had made it to safety on first and then headed to second, the man originally on second wouldn’t have had to move then, either. It wouldn’t be a forced play, because first base was still open for the batter to go back to; at that point, the defending team couldn’t simply tag a base to get the poor, waffling batter (now runner) out–they would have to actually tag the batter.
Since, in the OP’s scenario, the ball was not a pop fly and was in play, the man who was on third was allowed to score–as long as he did so before the third out. He could have also stolen home, but that’s a different story.
Oh, and Brad Amundsen’s link provides a good (and official, of course, coming from MLB’s web site) explanation of what a forced out is.
First, let me amend my statement to draw it out to it’s intent in the context it was given:
The batter has to make it safely to first for the run to count, when he is put out for the third out to end the inning.
Obviously, the batter doesn’t have to make it first in every instance.
Second, you’re right, the distinction is whether the third out was a force out. Except for my not clearly making my statement about the batter reaching first base, I think we’re actually in agreement and your brother is wrong.
Different situation, trying to illustrate the difference in the order - bases loaded, batter hits into an inning-ending double play, outs made at second and third. The runner on third had been creeping down the line and crosses the plate after the ball is hit, but before the fielder even gets to the ball. Run scored?
I don’t think so. I’ve never seen a run counted in any inning-ending double play situation.
Hmmm… Ok, now I’m officially confused (doesn’t take much).
Of course, the difference in this versus the bases-loaded scenario is in my scenario everyone’s a force out.
Finally… my eyes hurt from looking… here’s the rule…
HOW A TEAM SCORES. (a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning. EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter runner before he touches first base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.
According to number 2, whether the second out was a force or not has nothing to do with it, and my original statement was correct.
But the batter is not the third out in that situation, and the third out is not a force out. This situation doesn’t apply to either the OP, or aahala’s revised situation about the runner crossing home before the second out was scored.
Well, actually, according to your link, I’m wrong. It looks like you’re right in that the run doesn’t count–unless there exists exceptions not mentioned in those rules.
What could be clearer? No. 1 clearly states that a run shall not be scored during a play in which the third out is made by the batter before he touches first base. Of course, No. 2 is applicable also.
