Baseball rule clarification

[Mean_Mr.Mustard]

Runners on first and third, one out. The hitter bounces into a double play. The runner crosses the plate before the second (third) out is made; this run does not count (is this correct?).

Now, same situation. The guy on first is thrown out at second, the runner from third crosses the plate, then the first baseman muffs the throw from second. The runner turns the wrong way and finds himself in a rundown. After several back-and-forth throws, he is eventually thrown out. Does the run count?

I realize that if I’m wrong about the run not counting in the first scenario, the second scenario is moot. However, if I am correct in the first scenario, the run not counting in the second would seem very strange.

Someone enlighten me.
mmm

[ElvisL1ves]

1. The run does not count, since the final out (the batter) was a forceout (he can’t retreat to home).
2. The run counts because the final out is not a forceout - he’s passed first and can retreat there.

[Telemark]

I believe no runs can count on a play if the batter doesn’t make it safely to first base. In scenario one that means no runs can score no matter the timing.

In the second scenario once the batter has reached first base safely it becomes a timing issue.

[Mean_Mr.Mustard]

@ElvisL1ves

1. The run does not count, since the final out (the batter) was a forceout (he can’t retreat to home).
2. The run counts because the final out is not a forceout - he’s passed first and can retreat there.

So you are saying that on any inning that ends with a forceout, no runs can score on the final play?
mmm

[RickJay]

@Mean_Mr.Mustard

So you are saying that on any inning that ends with a forceout, no runs can score on the final play?

No run can score on the play that includes the third out if the third out is a force play.

[Munch]

Heard this the other day:

Bases loaded, no outs. Fly ball into shallow center, centerfielder makes an amazing diving catch, and quickly doubles the runner out at second before he can tag up. Runner at first gets back, but trips on the base, and they catch him in a rundown. Meanwhile during the rundown, the runner at third didn’t tag up, but crosses home before the rundown results in the third out.

Before the fielding team heads for the dugout, they appeal at third base, and get the runner out. Quadruple play!

[septimus]

@Munch

Heard this the other day:

Bases loaded, no outs. Fly ball into shallow center, centerfielder makes an amazing diving catch, and quickly doubles the runner out at second before he can tag up. Runner at first gets back, but trips on the base, and they catch him in a rundown. Meanwhile during the rundown, the runner at third didn’t tag up, but crosses home before the rundown results in the third out.

Before the fielding team heads for the dugout, they appeal at third base, and get the runner out. Quadruple play!

You heard it in an actual game? Or as a hypothetical?

BTW, SDMB’s baseball rule experts have, AFAIK, still not offered an opinion on this application of Rule 6.08(b).

[Mean_Mr.Mustard]

@Munch

Before the fielding team heads for the dugout, they appeal at third base, and get the runner out. Quadruple play!

The inning is over, why would they appeal?
mmm

[USCDiver]

@Mean_Mr.Mustard

The inning is over, why would they appeal?
mmm

Because the runner from third scored before the third (non force) out was made. The appeal negates the run.

[sevenwood]

@Mean_Mr.Mustard

The inning is over, why would they appeal?

Because if they didn’t, the run would count (because the umpires presumably didn’t initially rule that the player on third didn’t tag up).

Oops. ninja’d by USCDiver. Must learn to type faster.

[Julius_Henry]

@Telemark

I believe no runs can count on a play if the batter doesn’t make it safely to first base. In scenario one that means no runs can score no matter the timing.

This is not correct. In the OP’s scenario, if the throw to first if pulls the first basemen off the bag but toward the runner and he tags the runner out, the run will score if the runner at third crosses the plate before the batter is tagged out.

[Fred_Garvin]

@Julius_Henry

This is not correct. In the OP’s scenario, if the throw to first if pulls the first basemen off the bag but toward the runner and he tags the runner out, the run will score if the runner at third crosses the plate before the batter is tagged out.

Nope, still a force play, run does not count.

[Obeseus]

@Julius_Henry

This is not correct. In the OP’s scenario, if the throw to first if pulls the first basemen off the bag but toward the runner and he tags the runner out, the run will score if the runner at third crosses the plate before the batter is tagged out.

If the batter/runner is tagged out for the third out before he reaches first base, no run can score. It makes no difference whether the base is touched before he gets there or if he is tagged before he gets there (or strikes out, for example.)

[Munch]

@septimus

You heard it in an actual game? Or as a hypothetical?

Sorry, that wasn’t clear - pure hypothetical. That’d have made the news (i.e. ESPN), even at the Little League level, I’d think!

[RickJay]

Just for my benefit, does anyone know precisely what rule states runs don’t score on a third force out?

[Obeseus]

4.09 HOW A TEAM SCORES.
(a) One run shall be scored each time a runner legally advances to and touches first, second, third and home base before three men are put out to end the inning.
EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a
play in which the third out is made (1) by the batter-runner before he touches first
base; (2) by any runner being forced out; or (3) by a preceding runner who is
declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases.

[Jeff_Lichtman]

As a further clarification: it’s a forceout if a runner who is forced to run is tagged before making it to the next base. That is, it’s not necessary for the base to be tagged for it to be a forceout.

[Reginald_Hobbes]

@Munch

Sorry, that wasn’t clear - pure hypothetical. That’d have made the news (i.e. ESPN), even at the Little League level, I’d think!

It would have happened in this 2009 game, had the Diamondbacks been paying attention.
Dodgers get run on ‘fourth-out rule’
Ethier scores before double play ends top of second

Andre Ethier was at third base, Juan Pierre at second, and with one out, Randy Wolf lined out to pitcher Dan Haren, who threw to second baseman Felipe Lopez, who tagged out Pierre off second base for the apparent third out of the inning.

But by the time Pierre was erased, Ethier had crossed the plate. The D-backs left the field without making a play on Ethier at third base, which would have been the fourth out of the inning.

But as the teams changed sides, plate umpire Larry Vanover walked over to third-base umpire Charlie Reliford, apparently to discuss the play, which Dodgers bench coach Bob Schaefer pointed out to manager Joe Torre, who went out to appeal.

After an umpire huddle, Vanover ruled that the Ethier run counted, even though Ethier had not tagged up, because there was no appeal at third base. Even though a play at third on Ethier would have been the fourth out of the inning, it would have taken precedence over the third out because it would have erased a run.

[That_Don_Guy]

Here is the “fourth out rule”, from Official Baseball Rules rule 7.10:

Appeal plays may require an umpire to recognize an apparent “fourth out.” If the
third out is made during a play in which an appeal play is sustained on another
runner, the appeal play decision takes precedence in determining the out. If there is
more than one appeal during a play that ends a half-inning, the defense may elect to
take the out that gives it the advantage. For the purpose of this rule, the defensive
team has “left the field” when the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory
on their way to the bench or clubhouse.

[OldGuy]

@Telemark

I believe no runs can count on a play if the batter doesn’t make it safely to first base. In scenario one that means no runs can score no matter the timing.

In the second scenario once the batter has reached first base safely it becomes a timing issue.

This is not quite right. No runs can score on a play in which the batter doesn’t make it safely to first and hat is the third out, bu tit can on other cases. For example, runners on first and third with one out. Batter grounds out to first baseman as runner scores. Runner originally on first rounds second and is caught for third out after runner crosses the plate. This run counts.

However, runners on second and third one out: Batter singles. First runner scores, second runner is thrown out trying to score as batter takes second. Defense then appeals that batter missed first base. This is the third out and no runs count.