Says the guy who couldn’t manage how to google “baseball rules” in order to find the rules of baseball…
Well, finding a link and actually understanding the game are two different things.
Please stop changing your parameters. Earlier in this thread someone gave the example of “2 strikes, runner on third scores with the pitcher just standing there, runner scores, then pitcher throws strike”, and you held your “no runs scored” ground. Which is it?
You have yet to provide a reference for the rule that says this.
4.09(a) refers to batter-runners. It does not address this situation. You can keep saying we’re “Reading too much into the distinction” but the distinction is there whether any of us likes it or not, and they deliberately use the term “Batter-runner,” not “Batter,” in that rule. The distinction between a batter and a batter-runner is an extremely important one. You concede that a batter who takes a third strike is never a batter-runner, so why are you trying to dismiss the use of that word in 4.09(a)?
The rules say what they say. They’re meant to be taken literally.
(For the record, I have sent the question into MLB.)
Yes, that is a good question for your local official scorer. He gets to decide sttistics, I am not aware of what guidance or traditions he operates on.
OK, but you still haven’t even tried to address a single aspect of my scenario, each of which is very clearly linked to a a section of the current major league rules.
The logic is not that complex. I am open to hearing the actual flaws in my logic, not your counter guess. Which part of what I wrote is fallacious.
Alternatively, maybe this becomes a question for SDSAB 
Or some other real baseball rules oriented board? Anyone know of any?
I actually agree with this analysis, but my original scenario, the action is continuous.
I don’t think I changed anything. I believe you are referring to this that someone posted on the first page:
The poster didn’t say the runner scored without the pitcher making a pitch. He said the pitcher was “slow to pitch” and “the pitcher pitches anyway.” This is continuous action. In such a play, the batter would be wise to step out and call time. If not, and the pitcher is set to pitch, he may, and if he throws strike three, the inning is over, and no run scores. What would have been a steal of home is now nothing. The inning is over.
There is an email address for rules questions? Do share!
Nope:
He probably can’t call time if the runner has started, or the pitcher starts his long slow motion.
In any case, he can only request time, the ump can grant it or not.
And if he requests, and is granted, after the runner starts, then the run certainly won’t score. If that was the play that was signalled, he will hear about it in the dugout, and in cases like this there are often prices to pay as a teammate for missing a call like that.
Anyway, I believe if you asked 100 people if the run would score in my scenario, maybe 100 of them would say no as you do.
But the rules simply do not support that conclusion. If you beat the pitch home, and are not hit by it int he strike zone (no mean feat on a decent pitch btw), and the batter does not become a batter-runner you will be safe.
Btw, if that didnot explode your head, consider this: catcher drops third strike, batter becomes batter-runner, runner crosses standing up easily, batter thrown out lazily at first well after runner crossed home. No run.
The key is when the batter does not become a batter-runner. If the runner crosses the plate legally before the final out, it counts. The nature of the final out is not relevant except that the batter has not yet become a batter-runner.
In this regard it is no different than if it is runner 1st/3rd, double steal. Catcher throws out runner at second for 3rd out. Run counts if it crosses before the out is made, does not count otherwise. I think we agree on that much, right?
The game objectives state that the offensive team’s goal is to have their batters become batter-runners. No run can score when the third out is made when a batter-runner doesn’t reach first base (or a preceding runner is force out.)
Example: Bases load, 2 out. Batter grounds to shortstop, who tosses to second baseman for forceout at second base. Inning over. No run scores.
Now if a team can’t score on a third out when a batter-runner doesn’t reach base, how can a team score when a batter doesn’t even become a batter-runner. I’ve already admitted the rules aren’t written well, but a little common sense is needed.
Okay. I stand by my answer provided the ball doesn’t go dead (as in the batter wisely stepping out & calling time.) If the pitcher is set, he can pitch. It he throws a strike, it’s continous action. Strike three, inning over. If the batter ropes one to the outfield, he gets an RBI & no steal for the runner. I don’t see how I’ve changed any parameters, but maybe there’s a few more straws for you to grab.
I wasn’t going to answer you, but It’s too much fun. I was referring to the following scenario:
- Pitcher is set on rubber.
- Runner takes off.
- Pitcher is ‘slow’, ‘in daze’, or whatever. He just stands in set position as runner crosses plate.
Now, and only now, if the runner is smart, he would call time & step out before the pitcher has a chance to pitch. If he can get time called, the pitcher can’t pitch.
However, if the pitcher gets out of his daze and delivers, the run will not count if the batter strikes out for the third out.
Oh, so now you think if the catcher drops the ball & throws out the batter (who is now a batter-runner) at first base, the run won’t count, but if he catches the ball cleanly the run counts. Think about what you are saying.
Yes, agree. However, there is no force involved here. The batter is essentially ‘forced’ to reach first base. When he strikes out, he doesn’t become a batter-runner. He’s out, inning over.
I don’t accept that after 140 years of professional baseball, the rules are not well written.
They are what they are.
One way to score when the batter does nt become a bater-runner is simple:
runner on third, balk.
Run scores.
Another is
Runner on third, steals home.
I know you accept those things can and do happen.
The real question here is, how long before the third strike for the third out is recorded on a strikeout do you have to cross the plate safely on a steal in order for the run to count?
If I understand you (and if not, please correct), your position is that, if there are two strike, even if you score while the pitcher still has the ball in his hand due to his crazy slow windup and your rabbit legs, as long as the ensuing pitch,which arrives with you between the dugout and on-deck circle it is so late, if that pitch is a ball, the run scores, if the pitch is a strike, it does not.
Now, that is a bit exaggerated of course, but is it a fair view of your position?
Mine would be, if you get to the plate safely without a tag before the ball is caught by the catcher, and avoid being hit by the pitch in the strike zone, then the run counts.
I know. I mentioned that in the original post where I outlined the scenario, post 55 I think.
It all hinges on if the batter becomes a batter-runner or not.
In fact, the catcher might be better off dropping the ball and tagging the batter out, that would negate the run because it triggers the exception in rule 4.09 where the batter has become a batter-runner and then was put out.
Weird, I know.
That is why we love baseball, right?
Yes, agree. However, there is no force involved here. The batter is essentially ‘forced’ to reach first base. When he strikes out, he doesn’t become a batter-runner. He’s out, inning over.
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I once saw a pitcher zone out to such a degree that a base-runner reached the next base before the pitch was delivered, although the base involved was second and not home. The incident occurred during the 1993 ALCS between Toronto and Chicago. Toronto had a runner at first and two out, with a 3-2 count on the batter, so the runner was running on the pitch. The Chicago pitcher assumed the set position, and the runner took off–too early, actually, but the pitcher remained in a trance for several seconds until the runner reached second. Then, and only then, did he deliver the pitch–which was fouled off.
The umpires made the runner return to first. However, I never found anything in the rule book that would give guidance either way.
OK, you are sooo close to getting it now. I really want you to!
Go back and look at rule 4.09a again:
I think you will agree exceptions 2 and 3 don’t apply.
Since the batter does not become a batter-runner if he strikes out looking (e.g.), exception 1 does not apply either.
Hence the body of the rule applies, as is, sine there are no other exceptions.
The run scored before the put out occurs, hence it meets the criteria of the rule.
I know it is bizarre.
But there it is.
OK let;s go deeper.
The index of the rule book says these rules apply to “scoring runs”
We already looked at 4.09
This just defines a run. Nothing interesting here.
This might apply, but only if the runner is hit by the ball, which he is not in our scenario. So nothing here helpful.
This actually might apply if the catcher tries to block the plate, but in our scenario he waits. If he does not wait for the pitch to arrive, it is a balk and the run scores, and it is catcher’s interference too, and the batter goes to first (without being a batter-runner ?).
But it doesn’t help us in our scenario as the catcher is patient.
In our scenario this does not apply, as the batter is patient and stays out of the way.
7.10 involves appeal play situations (missed bases, etc.) and does not apply here.
This is also an appeal situation, and does not apply.
That is it.
the only thing that applies is 4.09a, and the exceptions are not a factor in our scenario.
The only possible conclusion, I know against common sense, is the run scores.
My guess is that because the ball remained in play (he pitched without breaking contact wit the rubber), and the batter sung and made contact, he became a batter-runner, so relevant batter-runner rules apply.
Had he taken the pitch, if it was ball 4, well, no steal because runer is forced to second.
If he struck out, no steal as discussed above on rule 10.something - call of the official scorer.
Only a steal I think if the pitcher steps off the rubber, and even then, maybe it is a non-contested one and a call of the OS.
But I think that non-contested rule may be more recent then that series, not sure. I don’t think that one has always been there.
Yes, that is a fair view of my position, but the fact that you have to actually ask me shows that you don’t seem to be listening.
There is no time limit. It’s continuous play. Let’s say we have the crazy scenario of an extremely fast runner. The team at bat has a huge lead, so the defense doesn’t even hold the runner close at third, since it would be bush league to steal in that situation. But the guy gets a huge lead, the pitcher is not pitching from the stretch when he goes into a very slow windup. The runner takes off for home. The pitcher tosses the highest eephus pitch ever thrown. The runner is in the dugout when the ball finally comes down. The batter strikes out for the third out – inning over, no run can score.
Do you know why the run doesn’t count if he’s hit by the pitch is in the strike zone with two outs? BECAUSE IT’S STRIKE THREE! No different than if the batter is hit by the pitch in the strike zone – it’s still a strike. So if the runner gets hit by a pitch in the strike zone, he can’t score, because the batter has struck out for the third out.
I’m going back to not answering you. Let’s wait to hear from MLB and other assorted experts. I’ve acknowledged the rule is not written as clearly as it should be. (For third-out situations, it should state that “batter-runner” includes “batter” or say “batter / batter-runner”.