Let’s say newly elected President Trump’s back is against the wall figuratively, and he decides to publicly pardon himself.
What specific federal agency is authorized to call bullshit on the plan, and is the process simple enough to make it happen within 24 hours or so?
Any variation of “Well, that can’t happen because it ain’t legal” will not be accepted. I know it is illegal, but laws do not enforce themselves.
Wouldn’t NY (governor) have to do it?
I assume they would call it bullshit and stop it.
Hopefully he won’t nuke em out of the nation.
No promises.
Legally, yes…but that isn’t what this is about.
Which specific “they” are you referring to?
Oh, federal agency. I see…well I guess he could petition for a state pardon, lose that, appeal it to the state supreme Court, lose that. Appeal that til he gets to the US. Supreme Court.
And we know how that will end. He’ll be well out of his term if he wins the Whitehouse. BTT.
I don’t think he can pardon himself til he gets it thru the state. How can he possibly make a governor do that? Without threat of violence.
I don’t think you understand.
I am not asking how Trump can legally acquire a pardon. I am asking what the process is to stop Trump once he delcares that he is pardoning himself.
It would have to start at the state. IMO.
They are probably the only ones who can call bullshit.
I don’t think Washington or the Fed will care if he’s in office. Half of America doesn’t care he’s a felon.
I understand what you’re asking. Can he, by hook or crook pardon himself? And who can stop him?
No one. Cause these apathetic assholes who would open a vein for Trump. Voted him in. They’re not writing letters to their congressman, to stop him.
The Senate has lost their minds. Scotus are aliens from a distant planet.
Maybe, just maybe one lone jr.Senator might take up the cause. Well, he/she best find future employment.
If he can find a way to get NY to pardon him. It’s a done deal. No one in Washington is gonna buck the system that far for fear of reprisal.
I think the only way to “call bullshit” on a pardon would be for the federal Department of Justice to prosecute the supposed recipient or continue the execution of a previously-issued sentence in a way that contradicts the pardon, at which point the recipient would go to court, show the pardon, and say (in so many words) “neener neener, you can’t touch me.” The court would then have to decide the legitimacy of the pardon, then it would be appealed, and probably appealed again.
This obviously wouldn’t happen in 24 hours. Indeed, because the DOJ has a policy of not prosecuting a sitting president, it probably couldn’t happen until the next presidential term.
I wish they were apathetic. Their lack of apathy is pretty much what got him in in the fist place.
The GOP is working on a bill to allow a current or former president to move state level charges to federal court.
https://newrepublic.com/post/182306/republicans-make-easier-acquit-felon-trump
Won’t they need an amendment?
There seems to be some confusion in this thread. Trump could only pardon himself for Federal crimes so his pardon would not be dealt with at the state level at all. As far as a sovereign state is concerned, the pardon wouldn’t exist at all.
Exactly. It’s like asking what federal agency would be able to stop me if I pardoned myself. None would because they wouldn’t have to. They’d just ignore the ravings of a deluded madman megalomaniac who thinks himself omnipotent.
“You can’t do this! I pardoned myself!”
“That’s cute. Officers, take him to processing.”
There is no specific federal agency that would call bullshit – it would have to be resolved by the courts. However, the case would have to arise from some actual attempt to enforce the pardon. Trump just signing a piece of paper and saying “I’m pardoned!” doesn’t create any conflict that a court would need to resolve. As @Lord_Feldon says, at the federal level it would require the Department of Justice pursuing charges against him to create the conflict that would need to be resolved by the courts.
One wouldn’t think so, but his Mar-A-Lago/Documents case suggests otherwise. How much of that case has been tied up with the courts trying to decide if he can take something home because he decided it’s no longer classified.
At this point, I don’t think I’m too far off the mark with saying that if he wrote on a piece of paper that he’s pardoned himself for all state level crimes he’s been accused of, it would put those cases on hold while they figure this out.
But Trump is a special case. I think anyone else who tried that would be forcibly taken into custody and/or treated like a sovereign citizen and made to attend those court cases because you, a random citizen, can’t pardon yourself any more then the POTUS can pardon themself from a state crime.
Imagine walking into city hall, stealing a file cabinet and telling everyone from the cops trying to arrest you to the judge saying you’re guilty that you pardoned yourself so they have to let you go.
IANAL but I think what would have to happen is:
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Trump pardons himself for a federal crime - e.g. the classified documents case
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Whie Trump is in office, the Justice Department isn’t going to pursue the documents case anyway, so the practical effect of the pardon is zero.
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Trump leaves office and a new administration appoints a new Attorney General
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The new AG says “A President can’t pardon himself, that’s absurd” and reopens the documents case.
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Trump’s lawyers argue that the case is invalid because of the self-pardon and it ends up in the Supreme Court
If we’re talking about the Hush Money case, a Federal pardon wouldn’t do anything. But that’s not to say that Trump can’t claim otherwise.
But, assuming that Trump isn’t in jail at the time that he’s made president, catching him and forcing him to do the things that he’s supposed to do becomes very difficult. The Secret Service may or may not comply with New York law enforcement (probably not). That said, Maryland and the government of Washington DC could decide to issue warrants for his arrest and, from there, it’s basically up to the local police agencies about whether they want to shoot their way through the Secret Service to catch the guy.
The State of New York could also start taking away Trump’s possessions, putting leins on him, to etc. He could try to fight that by going to a NY judge and showing them the pardon. I don’t expect the judge to pay any attention to it, though.
Now, if we ignore the state level crimes and go back over to Jack Smith’s trials, then they’re largely irrelevant unless he can somehow get a guilty verdict decided in the next couple of months. Not likely. But, assuming that that happens through some magic, then Trump could try to pardon himself.
Since he would already have been convicted, I think that matters would already be past the DOJ, so we’d either be back to the FBI (Chris Wray) or maybe (?) the Marshalls Service to pick him up and throw him in jail. “Jail” in this case would seem to be the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP), which seems to be an arm of the DOJ and the director is appointed by the Attorney General. The director of the Marshalls Service serves at the pleasure of the current president.
I believe that the official list of “who committed what crimes and are they currently considered guilty of those”, for the Federal government, is held and maintained by the FBI.
Wray would, ideally, hold fast on Trump’s guilt. That’s not necessarily true but, assuming that it is, then the two potential snags are that 1) the FBI grabs Trump and tries to take him to prison, at which point the BOP refuses to take him, and 2) the FBI maintains that Trump is guilty and continues to list him as such.
Generally, the FBI would pass off most legal initiatives to the central DOJ (the FBI is, itself, part of the DOJ) but I’d assume that they could bypass their nominal bosses and send some of their own lawyers directly to a Federal judge of the appropriate jurisdiction (probably DC) and sue for the BOP to take him. Meanwhile, I’d assume that he’d be sitting in whatever sort of holding cell the FBI has got temporary detention.
So that could be one way that the process could start.
Alternately, if Trump wasn’t detailed by the FBI then his activities could still be overly hampered by his continued listing in the FBI criminal history records. He could go to a Federal judge and sue to have the FBI obey the pardon.
Most likely, though, would be that Trump would simply fire Wray and pick someone who was compliant. In that case, Wray could try to sue for wrongful termination and try to get the Supreme Court to restore him to office. That puts us back at the previous stage.
trump might be able to pardon himself for a federal crime. A state would simply ignore any attempt to pardon for a State offense. If say, he did win in November, but the appeal ran out in mid January, he’d still have to go to prison or whatever.
I’m slowly starting to think electing a convicted felon to POTUS might not be a good idea.
As far as the federal cases are concerned, he might pardon himself but he definitely will order his new AG to drop all the cases. And that will be the end of it. As far as waiting till the next term, I ask, in all seriousness, what next term? Do you really expect Trump to allow a next election? Assuming he lives so long.