A Question for African American Dopers

In My Humble Opinion
1

While I was reading this thread, I found some of the answers interesting.

I’d like change the question a bit, and confirm or deny a phenomenon I discovered years ago.

Having a conversation with a black cook at a restaurant where I was a bartender, we came to talk about language, speech, and so forth. One thing I found most interesting. He told me that growing up, he -and any person - was forbidden to tell someone that X was a liar. It was blasphemy of the highest order, and time for a whipping.

Now he could say, “Momma, David is fibbing.”, and that’s OK. He could say that Ann didn’t tell the truth about who broke the vase. In short, it was acceptable to convey the information that X was not being truthful with any word other than “lie” or "liar. Use them, and you got the cane immediately whether or not what you said was the truth.

We both come from the south, and I’ve never heard of such a thing. He told me it’s as common and widespread as Coca Cola. After polling the entire staff, it turns out only the black employees knew of this rule.

Over the years with different groups or at different employers, I have occasionally brought it up as an experiment, and the results were always the same. Black people were raised to understand that saying the word **lie **was vile, unacceptable, and would result in a whipping. No white people I ever asked had ever heard of such a rule of grammar.

Clearly this is a “black thing”.

Now, I realize I’m painting with broad brush, but since all of my “data” predates the internet, I now have the chance to reach beyond the Southeast and eliminate any geographical or confirmation bias and ask dopers across the country. Up until now, I’ve only spoken to Georgians about this.

Forget whether you were told that directly calling someone a liar was rude. That might be a given. My question - mostly for black members here - is thus: were you forbidden (or taught) as a child that using the words lie or liar was particularly wrong, above and beyond just “regular” bad behavior? Did it warrant punishment?

And let’s narrow it down if possible by including your (approx) age, race, and state where you lived during your childhood, or formative years. Also, who, if anyone told you this, e.g. parent, grandparent, etc…

I hope no one is offended by this question. It’s just an interesting phenomenon I came across one day, and I’m interested in the reason or origin. My guess would be the source is religious in nature, but that’s just a guess.

2

I am white Southern and I was raised with the same rule. My parents and teachers specifically prohibited the word ‘lying’ but fibbing or ‘telling a story’ could be used if you were really sure.

3

I’m black and out in California and I’ve never heard of such thing.

4

I’m white , grew up in Md. and never heard any special rules for liar or lying.

5

My parents didn’t raise me with this rule (I wasn’t the tattle-tale type anyway). But I am very familiar with the custom. You can say someone is telling a “story” and you can even accuse them of being a “story” (a construct that still cracks me up). But you cannot call someone a liar. That crosses the line.

My guess: The bible says the devil is a liar. Or at least that’s what people believe. So calling someone a liar is akin to calling them the worst thing you can possibly be.

In my experience a kid who called someone a liar wouldn’t be punished, but they would told to correct themselves.

6

Regional, not Racial.

A direct accusation is much more confrontational in the South.

Remember, this is the region where the way you reply to a person who says the STUPIDEST thing you have EVER heard is “Well, bless your heart.”

:wink:

7

I’m not an African American, but I don’t believe this to be a local phenomenon. Both the UK and Australia have “liar” proscribed in Parliament as unparliamentary language . You might get away with saying " economical with the truth ."

I believe that a polite Englishman will say “Oh, really ?” rather than an outright accusation of lying.

8

Correct, and I think it is completely justified as a rule. Calling someone a ‘liar’ is a label that you are attaching to their character and it is verbal assault based on assumptions that may or may not be true. If you have good evidence that someone is not telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, it is much more eloquent to flush it out through more indirect means. Anything else is rude and will likely be met with counterproductive results.

I have been called a liar several times when I was telling nothing but the truth. There will be a completely different result if someone asks further questions about what I am saying and looks at the evidence I present as opposed to just just going for attempts at direct character assassination. The former is completely reasonable while the latter is completely justifiable grounds for later retaliation on the person doing the name calling.

I don’t understand why this is a question. It is all about grace and truth seeking. You won’t win any points with anyone by calling someone a ‘liar’ including those you are trying to convince. If you have good evidence that someone isn’t telling the truth, just present it in a civilized way to whoever the relevant audience is. It is quite possible that the accuser could be completely mistaken. In any case, it is good form that doesn’t make you look like an ass.

When you walk out of stores and the security alarms go off, do you want security to immediately start screaming ‘SHOPLIFTER!’? It is the same principle.

9

Does this just mean calling someone a liar to their face (“You’re a liar!”) or does it also mean telling someone else (saying “John is a liar!” to someone other than John.)

10

Both.

11

That Congressman who said it during Obama’s state of the union should’ve been taken outside - not a party thing, just so disrespectful of the office.

12

My grandmother was a southern lady. She forbade use of the word lie or liar. She considered it crude, as did many in her generation and in her region, no matter the race. She used the phrase “telling a story”.

13

Uh huh.

No, I was not taught that calling someone a liar was worse than any other kind of name-calling or questioning of someone’s character.

14

White from Maryland and couldn’t call someone a liar.

15

My white southern father with a PHD felt the same away about the use of the word “liar”. It was sort of a nuclear accusation in the south (at least it was). It’s not a black thing it’s a southern thing, and given that many blacks across the US originally came from the culture of the south it’s hardly surprising this bit of manners has persisted across generations beyond the south.

16

OK, this has bugged me for years. Folks from “back east” often call others liar. Out west, where in the “old days” a business deal was often sealed with a hand shake, calling someone a liar was a shooting offense. A rancher would sell his cattle for say, $10.00 a head. He would tell the buyer that he had 450 head of cattle. The buyer then gave him $4500.00 in cash. When the cows were delivered to the buyer, there had better be 450 cows or more. If not, a good exploitation AND a remittance was in order. If said rancher got a reputation as a liar, he could do no business. If some Ahole from back east, or anywhere for that mater, called him a liar, the least he could expect this rancher to do was to beat the living Sh out of him.

It was the same for every business deal that was made, buying lumber for your house, to the wood for your stove, etc.

The reason was, it was often too far to go to the bank to cement the deal right then and there. It is still this way in many of the western states.

If I was called a liar, I would confront the name-caller. The least he/she can expect is a loud, heated, warning that such name calling is unacceptable out here in the west. The worst they get, is the a fore mentioned ass whipping. Unless they pull a weapon.

If this sounds a little harsh, please remember that you-all are protected in your “civilized society” not only by LEOs, but also by Attorneys, and bankers. When I am 200 miles from the closest of these and 180 miles from the closest cell phone service, I have no time or inclination to rely on these services to help me. I handle things as needed. If I can not do business because some jerk has called me a liar in public in the past, then I am in deep do-do.

So to answer the OP, YES, calling someone a liar is, at the very least, rude. This is how I was raised.

17

Oh yeah, I am white.

Like the OP, I find that southern folks, especially black folks, have a similar attitude.

I also find that there is less concern around here about the color of someones skin, then there is about their honesty. Their work ethic is also more important then skin hue.

IHTH, 48.

18

But if I have done my homework, and can conclusively prove that you are lying to me, and we remain at an impasse because all of my polite attempts to steer the exchange in a truthful direction have failed, why can I not call a liar a liar?

[rant]I have satelite photographs from 2001 showing a vacant lot, and there is a house there now. You are telling me that this house was built in the 1960s. In past conversations, you may have forgotten, you told me that you built it. You are lying, and I have a job to do. I’ll go get a fire extinguisher for your pants. You are a liar.[/rant]

Tangentially: Did kids taunt “Liar, liar, pants on fire” in areas where that term was unacceptable?

19

First, have you ever seen a house being moved down a street to a new address?
Lots of wheels, big truck, steel I beams?? My cousins have had 4 or 5 old houses moved onto a lot that sat empty for over 20 years. One of them my great-grand-father built.

Second, yes where I grew up kids did use that taunt. They often got into a fistfight over it.

Third, what do you gain by confronting these folks about their “exaggerations”? I fail to see how this helps you. If I find that folks are not being honest, I do not associate with them, family included. Where is the gain for you? Does it help your ego? I just do not get it. I am not trying to be insulting, I just do not understand this attitude.

20

Sorry, I could’ve made my ranting example more clear. In this case, it made no difference whether a house was moved to the site, or was built on the site. I was trying to provide an example where there was NO question that I was being lied to. No house in 2001, house today - it has NOT been there since the 60s.

How is it that it’s okay for someone to lie to me, but a most grievous insult if I call them on it? That is what I don’t understand, and that is what frustrates me.

My colleagues and I catch people lying to us ALL THE TIME, an it makes our jobs much more diificult, Even worse, is that it makes the liar’s situation worse too, so they have nothing to gain from it. Things would go better for everyone if I didn’t have to present counterarguments and evidence to put down every lie they bring forth, and we could work with a shared understanding of the situation.

The lying is insulting in and of itself.